235 comments:

1. Thank you, Father. As you point out, narcissists have a very great need for our prayers, for otherwise their souls are completely lost. We must pray for them, even while protecting ourselves and others against their demands.

2. Father,
   For an interesting interview and title, Google “Malignant Self-Love.” The person interviewed suffers from this this disorder.

3. Very timely article to our personal lives, Fr. Stephen, thank you and Praise God! I take this as an encouragement to continue in prayer because Our Lord IS the Lover of Mankind, just is Our God is our Creator — He knows how we are made as you describe here. Lord have mercy on all dealing with Narcissism within themselves or within those they love.

4. Excellent piece! Narcissism indeed as a personality disorder is a deep wound and I agree the only healing is to gaze upon the Face of God and experienced oneself as looked upon with the eyes of Love. To encourage others to come before God in that vulnerability is so difficult for sometimes the wound is so deep that there is a hatred for God for even creating them. I imagine that you have experienced how necessary it is to be willing to enter into the Hell of their internal life with them and show that you are not frightened or repulsed by it. God bless you Father. You work is beautiful.

5. There are two things that I try to earnestly and emphatically convey when I make an apology to someone.
   1) There are no excuses to be made.
   2) The person receiving the apology is NOT obligated to forgive.

   A narcissist cannot even acknowledge the possibility that they stepped out of line. That is NO WHERE on their radar. And they will even claim insult and injury if you even suggest that they were out of line. The only thing that you can do to protect yourself from a narcissist is to straight up and down tell them ‘I have to restrict my interactions with you to ONLY those that are absolutely necessary.’ And you have to hold that line like God told you to do it because if you don’t do that they will use whatever allowance you give them against you.

   The reason I tell people that they are not obligated to forgive me is because of the nature of insult and injury: Control. More often times than not when we slight our brothers and sisters there was something over which we were struggling for control. If I apologize for a wrong that I have committed with the expectation that you are obligated to forgive…then who is still in control? So, in order to concede control I have to accept the possibility that forgiveness will not be granted and that is OKAY. It is within the rights of the offended party to not relent.

6. A lot of clergy leaders are narcissists. Very sad. Implying that being the most mature in Christianity means you get up in front of a crowd and talk about God, is a strong temptation to power, gain, and pleasure. Hence it attracts many clowns and narcissists.

7. Samuel,
   I saw an article that wrote about narcissists and their presence in occupations. Teachers, clergy, and some other things were very attractive. I’ve known of more than a few cases and they are tragic. However, your characterization of “a lot” seems inaccurate or exaggerated. There are some.

8. Upon reading the book “The Sociopath Next Door”. I became convinced that the only salvation for the narcissist is to be placed in an environment that favors the group over the individual. For example, the incidences of this disorder happening in the eastern world is far less than here in the west. It would seem that the more individualistic a society is the more narcissists are born into that society. From what I understand from science, that would be considered an adaptive behavior in terms of evolution. But a strange adaptive behavior, since narcissists and sociopaths are born that way. Our society teaches us not to ever make a mistake. So people have begun to acknowledging that they don’t, but become fully aware of the faults of others. So when another person makes a mistake around them they have no empathy to forgive them. They are the perfect creatures living in an imperfect world. This is what is being encouraged in our society, and it’s at the root of our division as a nation.

9. I just read The People of the Lie and I think that may be the book you are referring to. It is a fascinating read.

   As far as the narcissist, there is one way they can become able to reach for redemption. That is, they suffer what’s called a narcissistic injury so bad that their personality completely breaks down and they have to rebuild it from scratch. This is rare, but it can happen. An experience like this can kill someone. They can be driven to suicide, it’s beyond what most people can imagine. But it can be done.

   Thank you Fr. Stephen for an inspiring blog.

10. Thank you Father Stephen. You have spoken the Orthodox truth about a very unorthodox disorder and behaviour. Some of the comments are dragging the discussion to a tangent: it’s not about good and bad guys. It’s about the salvation of mostly broken souls.

    We are all broken to an extent and if I may, starting with myself, I’d say I am a narcissist compared to a crucified God. The trouble with this disorder is that it can cause immeasurable harm to people under the control of these people who like themselves so much.

    I worked for a narcissist in the business world at least once. His shame was known to few and now I have sympathy for him, but you have to be a saint to worry about a man like that. The scores of human beings that he has put through hell on earth get left with deep wounds. You can resign a job, but you can’t run away from the despot that controls everything about your life.

    My prayers are with the victims; God has a plan for the evil one.

11. I was once in a relationship with a narcissist. The only way to help myself was to completely block him from my life. The only way to help him is to continue to pray for him. May God help us to love others in spite of our brokenness.

12. My husband has had two narcissists as bosses. It has taken an enormous effort to heal from the shame, bullying and feeling of incompetence those two pushed on him. It was very hard, as the spouse, to watch him fall into the pit and just as hard to watch him climb out. I’m still working on forgiving those two people for their treatment of him.

13. Athanasia,
    I have worked with people and helped them get out of such situations and relationships. The aftermath requires lots of healing. God give your husband grace!

14. Fr Stephen,
    You have written beautifully on this subject. Thank you.

    I have considered the possibility that some sort of toxic shame must be the seed for the development of a narcissistic personality. It seems from your writing that this is likely the case. I can’t imagine what soul damage might happen from being in a parish with clergy exhibiting this disorder. I pray that we are spared of this, or that the Church hierarchy would laicize such clergy if they are exhibiting these characteristics. God help us.

15. Dee,
    I’ve known of a few deposed for spiritual abuse. It is tragic when it happens.

16. Father Stephen, please delete this comment if you feel it doesn’t add to the discussion. I’ve been married for eighteen years to a person who may or may not be a narcissist, so I am a bit hyper-aware as to how the word is used in pop-psychology.

    One of the most important pieces of information that I’ve collected on my journey was from a wise clinical psychologist. She made sure that I understood that narcissism is a diagnosis of exclusion. All humans go through a narcissistic phase of development– we call that adolescence. Some (perhaps more in our current culture of neurosis?) get developmentally stuck in that stage. For all intents and purposes, they act like “narcissists.”

    The difference between a “real” narcissist (with NPD) and someone who presents as a narcissist is simply this: There are people who present as narcissists who may, given time and effort at personality development, overcome their disorder/illness/malfunction/immature personality. The true diagnosis of narcissism is reserved for those cases where therapy and relationship and effort and so on have no effect. Of course, that information by itself is of little help (and can be quite dangerous) for people who need to leave dangerous relationships for their health and safety.

    I feel like this is a very important distinction in our culture, where so many unpleasant people are quickly labeled as narcissists . The etymology of shame is even the same for both groups of people— but the decisions and judgments we make about them can be dangerously premature in our own efforts to justify our own boundary setting.

    In my own experience, I have come to the conclusion that the only answer to personality disorder (whether temporary and able to be alleviated or potentially life-permanent) is a miracle of repentance and grace. In that regard, my life and marriage are a great experiment of grace. For which one of us can judge the repentance of another, especially a known liar?

    Father, your observations about shame and boundaries are spot on. My spouse can do amazing contortions to avoid feeling shame— and can lie earnestly that that is not true, that of course they know of their own shame. It is deep compassion for the wounded child that I married (along with an extensive psychological skill set!) that keeps me willing to approach the altar of sacrifice.

    Thank God that prayer is not nothing. It is perhaps the only action we can take on behalf of another.

17. Father Stephen, while I do not believe I am a narcissist, I do think I may be one in transformation. I’ve been trying to follow Jesus since 1/19/70. I became a very depressed & self destuctive personified my 30’s. It is hard to even think about it. I have experienced overwhelming guilt that still will plague me to this day. When I look in the mirror I can not look myself in the eye. I’m praying & working to see myself with the eyes & mind & heart of Jesus. There is to many other things to write. I was in therapy for over 7 years the last time. For about 30+ years I thought about suicide every day multiple times a day, but my fear of Hell & ECT kept me from doing it. I’m on meds but I’m not sure if they help that much. I seem to be making progress & have to remind myself that all my sins are forgiven. That’s enough for now. Thnx.

18. John,
    God is with you. May He give you grace and strengthen you. Don’t hesitate to reach out as you work through a hard time. We don’t have to do these things alone.

19. Fr. Stephen,
    Your addressing this issue is appreciated!
    Please expand the idea of the N person being “boundaryless”, as
    I have considered the N person having very strong boundaries (d/t the N defending his own opinions & desires; being active toward self-needs, passive towards others’ needs; being unwilling to negotiate, etc.)!
    It is a tenacious “standing up” for the self, defending the self to the point of having “walls” (boundaries).
    I will look forward to your reply,
    and again: thank you for this post, and the blog in general.

20. John,
    You said you have to remind yourself of being forgiven.
    One solid and very traditional counsel is this indeed! To focus on the foundation of the sense of having ‘been forgiven’. That it is an unwarranted given, to be accessed through thankfulness. Even the holy prayer of ‘Lord Jesus Christ have mercy on me’ can be said from the assurance of that foundation. Father Zacharias of Essex is fond of saying that God eventually leads us to a place where we ask for forgiveness mainly for this: that we cannot possibly thank Him enough for his forgiveness which is a given.
    It leads to a holy combination of -the seemingly disparates– remaining joyful and serious, trusting and watchful.

21. Fr. Stephen,

    Your articles have been enlightening and nourishing to me for the last few years since I discovered your blog—thank you! They’ve helped me understand more about my strained relationship with my mother, but this one on narcissism has been devastatingly accurate and helpful. Helpful, because it gives order and understanding to my mother’s state of mind and behavior towards others and especially us, her family. Devastating, because you’ve shown just how serious and difficult it is to interact and respond to a person whose narcissism and toxic shame color all their interactions.

    I have made many mistakes in trying to use logic, argumentation, and even weaponizing shame to get her to see how her actions and words are hurtful and inappropriate towards her family. Obviously, these have only made things worse. The only helpful thing to do has been to pray the canon to the Theotokos Softener of Evil Hearts.

    Lord have mercy on my mother. She raised me well, in the fear of the Lord.

    And let Lord have mercy on me a sinner.

22. I think that Saul was most likely a narcissist. On the way to Damascus, he had to be knocked off his horse and blinded, completely helpless, and totally dependent on others, in order to turn away from the “old man” and be born again. He then was able to open up to Jesus and his own humanity. Paul was willing to endure anything for Christ. that is a complete transformation.

23. Janette,
    Narcissistic personality Disorder is a serious clinical problem. St Paul had serious sins in his hatred of Christians, but I do not think it is of use to speculate in this direction.

24. I can’t help but think that we all have the potential for narcissism and that it is the knowledge and contemplation of this which allows people like St. Paul and the Fathers to genuinely bemoan the fact that they are chief of all sinners. Otherwise it would just be false humility. I didn’t say this eloquently but the idea helps me understand their disposition a bit better.

25. Drewster2000,
    I agree on the potential for narcissism. As I read this article, I kept thinking to myself, ‘Oh no! he’s describing me!’ So I found an online narcissist test (obviously not the most accurate or scientific of things–certainly not leading to any kind of genuine diagnosis). I scored very low, but I still see things within me that scare me…

26. Thank you Drewster and William. Your comments and Fr’s article remind me that the heart’s ability to repent is itself a gift we should be thankful for.

27. John Kemp…my heart goes out to you. I thank God for Father’s blessings to you and Dino’s encouraging words. May God’s love carry you through.

28. Since I’m not a psychologist, I can’t really say for certain I even know well what Narcissism means. Additionally, diagnoses are those “label” things, where life is lived on a spectrum — and a responsible diagnosis must be made under particular conditions that have to do with medical ethics that are meant to preserve the human dignity of the patient. Kind of like that tricky command to love one’s neighbor as oneself.

    But we do know that the founders of psychology were fascinated by mythology, and we can learn something from the myth of Narcissus, the man who fell in love with his image in the water. In this I can speculate that what becomes all-important is image, even a mask. And there we can come to Christ’s railing against the hypocrites (“beneath the mask” — “actor” as in the ancient plays where masks were worn to indicate characters) of His own day, and the challenge to each of us to live humble lives. As far as I can see, to love God with one’s heart, mind, and soul is to stand before God and understand something of how we measure up. I say “something” because I really don’t know how it’s possible that I could know in an instant every single shortcoming or flaw I need to deal with — thank God faith is a journey and not an instant’s understanding. I suspect that what we’re talking about here is the mask that keeps us from acknowledging our own blindness to ourselves, for which humility is a remarkable antidote. Humility also gives us a key to knowing God’s love for us, opening a crack in that door of God’s glory, and thus healing in so many ways. God’s love is so key to healing the deep shame. My 2 cents.

    I have personally known at least one now-defrocked clergy whom I could describe as someone living with a mask and very blind to his own internal life. He was a ruthless martinet to his parishioners, and in my opinion, over-zealously pushed confession even onto children in ways I felt at the time were violations, boundary crossings as Father puts it. Isn’t it odd how those who struggle with the kind of toxic shame you describe, Father, so often push that kind of shame onto others? I won’t state here what ripped the mask off and so preserve anonymity, but his hypocrisy is still firmly in place. (Do not worry, thank God that at least had nothing to do with children as far as anyone knows.)

29. Also I think sometimes we mistakenly conflate regret with repentance. There’s far more involved in repentance. Seeing oneself as the chiefest sinner is the first step, not the last step of repentance.

    In order to till ‘the dirt’ of my soul to receive God’s seed, my confessor suggests regular scripture reading. But he uses a different description of this endeavor, which is more like washing the soul of ones sins with Christ’s words. Still the work is before us to commit ourselves to living and doing Christ’s commandments.

30. Father…that picture of the baby pressed up against the image of Christ is beyond words precious. I can see why you chose it for this article. Sure, if only we can be like that child in innocence and trust…and more, that Christ is with that child in all that he is going to encounter in this life, including wounds of cruelty and shame. He bears those very wounds. Something inside that child, though he can not express it, is drawn to Him…he “knows” Him. If I was there when that child did that, I’d completely melt…

31. Seeing oneself as the chiefest sinner is the first step, not the last step of repentance.

    So true!

    John, may God hold you in His love. I often wonder how God could love me, given my sins. But this last week during Liturgy I was overwhelmed with His love in the midst of prayer. Too often we think in terms of “measuring up” when we need only be thankful that He reaches down. God does not abandon us, whom He loves. May his Grace be with you in all things.

32. I read this in Jude just yesterday. Thought it pertinent to the discussion.
    Jude has earlier described them as, “ungodly persons who pervert the grace of our God….looking after themselves; waterless clouds, carried along by winds; fruitless trees in late autumn, twice dead, uprooted; wild waves of the sea, casting up the foam of their own shame….”
    And at the beginning of his letter he states to believers: ” …contend for the faith, which was once for all delivered to the saints.”
    It’s a powerful one page epistle that ends with a glorious benediction.

33. Dee,
    If seeing myself as the chief of sinners is merely the first step of repentance, I must confess that I haven’t even begun. Lord, have mercy.

34. All,
    The mechanism of narcissism, as I understand it, is certainly common to everyone. It is really only a matter of degree. And the key, and a reason I chose to write about it, is in the experience of shame. Shame is the “unbearable emotion” according to psychologists. And, in its toxic form it can truly be crippling and soul-crushing. But, importantly, the notion of “healthy shame” is essential. The Elder Sophrony taught, “teach them to bear a little shame.” That is perfectly healthy. Not just that I know my sin, but that I can bear (a little) to reveal it to another. And this is key in confession. It’s not the revealing it to God that matters (what is there that He does not always see?). It is the mechanism involved in revealing it to another human being.

    In confession, the Church intends to create a space that is utterly safe and utterly compassionate (it is more than tragic if this is every not so). In that safe place, we can dare to reveal just a little of our shame and receive the powerful assurance and grace of absolution. It is the slow healing that enables us, in time, to behold Christ “face to face”. Indeed, it can be said, that, in confession, when the shame has been revealed, forgiven and comforted, we are able to lift our eyes to Christ and see Him “without shame.”

    Christ’s Pascha reveals humanity at the very depths of its shame. It’s not the pain we inflict on Him, it is the mocking, scourging, and public shaming. It is the sound and actions of us placing our shame on Him. And He bears it: “I did not turn my face from the spitting and the shame.”
    And Pascha reveals how utterly He forgives. At the very apex of that shaming He says, “Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.” He even makes excuse for us! Such compassion!

    O LORD, You have searched me and known me.
    2 You know my sitting down and my rising up; You understand my thought afar off.
    3 You comprehend my path and my lying down, And are acquainted with all my ways.
    4 For there is not a word on my tongue, But behold, O LORD, You know it altogether.
    5 You have hedged me behind and before, And laid Your hand upon me.
    6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; It is high, I cannot attain it.
    7 Where can I go from Your Spirit? Or where can I flee from Your presence?
    8 If I ascend into heaven, You are there; If I make my bed in hell, behold, You are there.
    9 If I take the wings of the morning, And dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea,
    10 Even there Your hand shall lead me, And Your right hand shall hold me.
    11 If I say, “Surely the darkness shall fall on me,” Even the night shall be light about me;
    12 Indeed, the darkness shall not hide from You, But the night shines as the day; The darkness and the light are both alike to You…
    (Ps. 139:1-12)

35. Janine….Thanks so much for your comment. I wanted to say something as well about the “labeling” aspect of these manifestations of deeply wounded souls which you expounded on and said very well.

    Because of our own wounds, shame, guilt we are appalled at and distance ourselves from ones who we see as narcissistic, I think it is partly because their love of self hits too close to home. Granted, their behavior is damaging to the core, to themselves and to others. And I certainly do not judge those who wish to be avenged of this evil.
    As for the extreme illness of full blown narcissism, (as a retired nurse) it helps me to look at it as different stages of an actual bodily wound. There are those who are still reeling from the initial penetration, the wound fresh and sore. If a physician is unavailable, for whatever reason, the person is somehow going to deal with this painful wound himself. Behavior can become animalistic, as animals instinctively self-preserve. In a similar way, all of us bearing our wounds are at different stages of healing. And blessed are those who trust in a Physician. So even though there is great evil in full blown narcissism, even to the extent of wonderment of their salvation, I see the barrier quite porous between myself and them.

36. Father…I just read your comment after my post. Thanks so very much. (I have goose-bumps…)

37. Thank you for all of that enlightening comment, Father. You just made me realize something. So often shame has to do with a social stigma, what has been placed upon us. In coming to a loving Lord (or even in a good confession) I often find that shame misplaced or at least mistakenly internalized in particular ways, needing adjustment so to speak. So often shame is crippling because it keeps us from moving forward, growing spiritually. For me, anyway, what you say about learning to bear the shame has been crucial to my life. In that sense, falling humiliatingly and embarrassingly on my face in public ways has spurred me to find God’s love — and certainly made me learn about myself and how much I need God’s guidance. But really, its healing is exchanging a worldly way of judging for God’s way of true judgment.

    Also, one other thing: in this context, to bear our crosses also means we’ll bear a burden of shame placed upon us by the world. When Jesus speaks of tribulation and persecution, He’s speaking about an unfair burden of bad judgment that we are called upon to bear in His name. If Satan is the accuser, then the way to undo an unjust accuser is to bear the shame God’s way, with faith and following His commandments (and calling upon our Advocate). This is what brings true judgment. So much to wrap one’s head around.

    Thank you so much Paula, once again. It’s good to learn you are a (very compassionate) nurse, and what you say about wounds makes an enormous amount of sense to me, and is something more to think about deeply too.

38. Clinically diagnosed narcissism is regarded as virtually unrecoverable. Real narcissists arent just selfish or self-centered. Clinical narcissism is deeply pathological. It isnt shame and our own wounds that cause us to avoid them. Avoiding a narcissist is necessary for your own well-being.

39. Genuine narcissists are sociopathic.

40. Bless, Father.

    And if you’re married to a narcissist?

41. Sophia,
    Marriage to a narcissist can be extremely difficult, even toxic. I would encourage anyone in such a situation to seek help and counseling.

42. Father,
    How do you discern between the two sides of the narcissistic personality, as Dino and Simon are delineating? Athonite monk/Freud.

43. Dean,
    I don’t think it’s particularly possible in most situations. I have, on a rare occasion, encountered a narcissistic personality that had overtones of demonic activity, but I simply backed away and left it alone. It was years ago and well above my understanding. But, if you’re dealing with a good clinical therapist, I think things are well enough in hand. Freud, Jung, etc., are really quite passe – their work having long ago been debunked in clinical studies (for the most part). If I refer someone to a therapist – it is to someone trained in Cognitive Behavior Therapy, which is pretty straight up without weirdness. Fr. Alexis Trader (of the Holy Mountain) has an excellent book on the subject (he’s also a trained therapist). For what it’s worth, I generally avoid folks who style themselves “Christian Therapists.” Too often there’s more bad theology mixed with poor psychology. I’ll take a secularist over that.

44. Father,

    Therapy for the non-narcissistic party?

45. Fr. Alexios Trader’s blog is also excellent.

    http://ancientchristianwisdom.com

46. Sophia,
    Yes. Chances are, the narcissistic person will resist therapy or not benefit from it. There’s sort of a “Catch-22” in narcissistic personality disorder. The disorder makes it almost unbearable to admit that there’s a problem that is the narcissist’s fault. As such, they want no help. The therapy for the non-narcissistic party is to help them cope with it, or garner the strength to get out. A relationship with a true narcissist (and not someone who is only “sort of narcissistic”) can be very debilitating and destructive for a person. They lose confidence, oftentimes, and doubt themselves. Much of this is on account of how they are treated.

47. Father,
    Your comment about Christian therapists made me smile – I was pursuing that in Protestant seminary when God unwound the Reformation for me and made it clear that it was either the Church or the Abyss. And what I saw in the best of my colleagues was that the wounded-and-now-healed wanted to heal. God grant them wisdom to do help and not damage (as was discussed somewhat in the last article).

    Janine’s comment about Narcissus was apt, and self-love is perhaps the primordial sin, as Ezek. 28:17 suggests – and we might also note that there it’s conjoined with trade, luxury, and violence. And so the only answer is to forget yourself and look at Christ, like the child in the picture. That this can happen so spontaneously with children versus agonizingly and via deep self-searching for adults is a mystery, but I suppose it’s why we are to become as a child. A child does not have a snake hiding behind a mask of pious words.

    It seems this is also at the root of a lot of the self-abasing counsels of the fathers, some of which have come in for a lot of discussion on these pages. Yet I may profit if I actually think of every single other person as better and closer to God than myself, rather than *trying* to think like that so that, really, I can feel like if I think that way then I’m actually better than them… if you know what I mean. We are called to simplicity, not duplicity. The dipsyuchoi – the two-souled man – is condemned in James. But oh how hard it is to be a one-souled person, and harder still to direct that one soul to God…

    Thank you for an apt and penetrating post. God grant me mercy to look at Him !
    In Christ,
    Mark M.

48. Father,

    That had been my experience, that the narcissist has no interest in therapy and the non-narcissist goes for their own well-being. And if marriage is a sacrament, a means to salvation, shouldn’t the non-narcissist just deny themselves, have compassion for the narcissistic spouse and… stick it out? Or is there a possibility of separating without divorce?

49. Sophia,
    The details of how it is handled will vary. I defer to their parish priest and counselor.

50. Mark,
    My, perhaps less-than-charitable judgment concerning “Christian Counselors,” is probably governed by the fact that most (in my area of the world) are Evangelicals, and, as such, have a very poor grasp of healthy theology. Many of the assumptions of Evangelical thought are simply flawed. I’ve had people who said they only wanted to go to an “Orthodox therapist.” I think that’s flawed as well. God to a good therapist, whatever their background – and work it together with your priest. That’s the best route, if counseling is needed.

51. Father,
    Of course. Thank you for the post, the blog, and your responses.

52. Thanks, Mark M. I’d like to add one caveat to your comment about my post: I think there’s a distinction between love of “true self,” if you will, and love of the mask which enables our selfishness and hard-heartedness. As you say, the whole point is to find the gaze of Christ and Christ’s guidance to who we are in all dimensions — our identity in Christ, in Creator. Maybe, really, the biggest problem is that love means something quite different than “self-love” describes.

    Ironic that the mask hides us from ourselves, but that’s the conundrum!

    I knew well one person whom I think could be described in the terms discussed here. She was brilliant. Toward the end of her life she suffered from dementia, and the carefully crafted mask wasn’t able to be maintained. Her language skills began to disappear. Slowly as the disease progressed, old memories of bad behavior surfaced along with guilt and shame she could hardly bear. I encouraged her simply to pray to God, “Please forgive me.” A person who hadn’t given much thought to God for most of her life told me afterward with relief, in the voice of the young girl she once was, “Oh I feel so much better!” So… the illness worked hopefully to help for the new life toward the end of life in this world. Deep help also came in the form of a small church bible study with sincere friends.

53. Janine,
    Thank you for sharing that story! It is often the sort of thing I imagine when I think of the healing of a soul after death. So much that is endured in this life, even within personalities, represents wounds as serious and real as a missing limb. That a relatively minor loss might reveal hidden depths is very instructive. God sees the truth of who we are, beneath everything that might hide it. It reminds us of the utter necessity to practice kindness and gentleness.

54. Father Stephen…in your response to Janine’s wonderful story you say:
    “It is often the sort of thing I imagine when I think of the healing of a soul after death .”
    I just want to say from the depth of my soul that I want that to be true. Because where you say “That a relatively minor loss might reveal hidden depths is very instructive “….yes, and who can know those hidden depths but God. I’ve considered both sides of the issue…yes there is a healing after death, and no, here and now is the only chance we have…and I am familiar with the interpretation of various scripture verses. But…then I don’t know what to say…I just pray…that’s all we can do…
    (Sorry, this is a big aside…I am just glad you brought that out.)

55. Paula AZ
    I cannot speak of details that I don’t know. I can only speak of what makes sense and the nature of my hope. There are a very few Fathers (Nyssa, Isaac of Syria) who speak about change after death. There’re probably others that I don’t know about. But I am particularly mindful of the role our bodies play in what we encounter of another person in this life. In the case that Janine shared – a small diminution in the part of the brain set the soul free towards repentance. I cannot imagine that such a hindrance is allowed to define our souls.

    Instead, God sees what we do not see. He can see, for example, an inner struggle on the part of an injured soul (of whatever sort), that no one outside of them knows, and might not even be fully known by the person themselves. I think frequently in this vein on the passage from Wisdom:

    Wisdom 3:1 But the souls of the righteous are in the hand of God, and no torment will ever touch them.
    2 In the eyes of the foolish they seemed to have died, and their departure was thought to be an affliction,
    3 and their going from us to be their destruction; but they are at peace.
    4 For though in the sight of men they were punished, their hope is full of immortality.
    5 Having been disciplined a little, they will receive great good, because God tested them and found them worthy of himself;
    6 like gold in the furnace he tried them, and like a sacrificial burnt offering he accepted them.
    7 In the time of their visitation they will shine forth, and will run like sparks through the stubble.
    (Wis. 3:1-7 RSV)

    It is echoed in 1 Cor.:

    12 Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw —
    13 each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done.
    14 If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward.
    15 If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire. (1 Cor. 3:12-15 RSV)

    These seem to be referring to something of the same thing – and to something after death. It is not, I think, a description of “purgatory” as described in the Roman Catholic Church, but something else – at least that’s how Orthodox Tradition treats it. But the fire is refining in nature – a fire that reveals. I think that many will be surprised to see what has been wrought in them in this life.

    But I have no theories or special revelation. I have a hope – that rests in what I know of God – and the few hints that have dropped along the way.

56. ” a small diminution in the part of the brain set the soul free towards repentance. I cannot imagine that such a hindrance is allowed to define our souls.
    Instead, God sees what we do not see…”
    You know, these seemingly small events, like the instance of this woman’s words (repentance) that were said in a moment of time, a little ‘blip’, unbeknownst to the rest of humanity, except for Janine who was ever blessed to witness this, shows the incredible wonder of God’s love for us…Father, I can’t even describe how these things touch me…He is so good…and I get speechless…tearful…that’s why I can not imagine that “you have you last chance…better take it now” kind of thought. No, I just can’t. Some people, like that woman, have indeed been through the fire…such pain…we should not “expect” them to do anything but rage! So thank you Father…yes, for your hope too and for the scripture verses. They are beautiful and very powerful. Your thoughts on this are well thought out…mine, they just come from the gut…well, some thought, but mostly gut. Thanks again.

57. “and the few hints that have dropped along the way.” ….Well, I bet that helps! I like that Father…sure would like to hear about that someday 🙂

58. I have a friend who has worked in the judicial system with victims fleeing domestic violence (almost all are women). He has worked inside and outside the penal system to help violent offenders. And in his 35 years of experience he has never seen someone he would identify as a narcissist seek help or accept help. His advice to anyone married to a narcissist: Get out! As much as we might fancy ourselves as living a cruciform life and accepting that all things are sent down from above this is not a cross to be underestimated. A narcissist isnt just someone that is hard to live with or even abusive. They are naturally good at manipulating people while maintaining a flawless public image. A narcissist has zero capacity for self-reflection. They are conscienceless. They can hurt you and then convince you that it was your fault they hurt you. They dont accuse you, but by subtle innuendo they get you to accuse yourself. Their ability to self-servingly reimagine entire episodes of personal history with you will occur at a speed faster than you can recall it. In short, a narcissist will undermine your sanity.

59. Thanks Father & Paula again. I have often wondered if Dementia/Alzheimer’s isn’t related to approaching death and our state of being (sorry, I’m kind of incoherent as to where I’m going with that). Watching things kind of “unpack” wasn’t just revealing, but an opportunity. I guess I have my personal theories, but the main thing I would say was remarkable was that despite the ongoing loss, there was still learning going on.

    It was also a reinforcement that life is life, each moment counts, our judgment isn’t the whole story — and that with God all things are possible. You can’t count people out until God says you’re done, and as the saying goes, it ain’t over til it’s over!

60. If you stand in a burning building, youre going to get burned.

61. The ones who suffer the most for our misguided sense of piety are the children.

62. Simon,
    You are dead on in recognizing NPD and how to deal with it….Experience being the best teacher, but so sorry you had to learn it that way! 😢

    There was an article years ago that helped me know what to do when I was confronted with a case where something close to this disorder seemed to be in play in a couple of people in whose orbit I found myself briefly caught. The traits of the person with NPD were included in that article and can also be found in numerous descriptive articles on the web. I could not find that article (which actually was a three-part series), but I found this one which could be helpful in many of the same ways:

    http://goodguyswearblack.org/2013/11/22/signs-in-a-congregation-that-a-leader-has-covert-narcissistic-personality-disorder/

    I was glad to learn from my Priest that at the OCA All-America Council coming up later this month, the topic of spiritual abuse will be under discussion. That is a hopeful thing.

    May God bless all efforts to expunge this sort of dynamic from our midst!

63. Dean,
    I do not see my previous comment displayed and therefore assume it might have elicited responses that led the conversation away and consequently was deleted? Not sure.

    NPD –and one’s dealings with it– viewed solely from the psychologist’s angle (I imply the ‘committed secularist angle’ here), is a different perspective in some respects from the Spiritual angle. We cannot lose awareness of that, neither can we underestimate scientific findings. It’s not one or the other but both.
    Cognitive Behavioural Therapy might have a great many things in common with Philokalic thought –as often explained by Father Alexis Trader– but it can also have key shortages –as often explained by Fr Alexis again.

    I have been amazed at the astounding depth of discernment of certain Spiritual guides as it almost approaches the legendary spiritual insight of a Saint Porphyrios (discerning spiritual activity where one has proof that things are hormonal or chemical and reversely discerning physical issues where others believe things are purely demonic within seconds).

    So, without such charismatic discernment I do not think one can differentiate with complete reliability.
    The truth is that both NPD as well as numerous subtle ‘controlling oversensitive megalomania subtypes’, based on our passions, exist; we cannot say: “let’s put these exact specific persons on an exiled island then!”

    My earlier comment on interpreting Narcissistic PD, [as with all disorders] it’s ‘comorbidity’ with other issues, its many subtypes (often affecting ‘at some point’ in life), the historically shifting diagnostic thresholds of psychiatry, the often disputed reliability of its [again historically changeable] ‘psychiatric diagnosis manuals’ etc, psychiatry’s examining of only the hereditary, genetic, biochemical, psychological, social, environmental factors of causation, while being totally unaware of the Spiritual realm and its comingling with our psyches, was based on Father’s previous article:

    An important insight within all of this is that what we ourselves see is not the full extent of the story. Human history is not entirely human. When Pilate questions Christ, he assumes that he is a key player in a human drama. But the true drama is being acted out in the heavens. The entire cosmos surrounds what happens on Golgotha. Our daily lives are no less intertwined in the business of the heavens.
    This unmasks the foolishness of modern thought. We have reduced our world to the merely secular, presuming that we ourselves are the driving force of history and that the outcome of things is in our hands. The Church, however, has its “citizenship” in heaven (Phil. 3:20).

64. Dino, It isnt about exiling the narcissist. Its about being healthy. If you are in a burning building and you get severely burned, you will deal with those wounds the rest of your life. If you want to avoid that trouble then get out of the burning building. It does not matter what the underlying determinants are of the narcissistic behavior. Following up on the burning house analogy, it doesnt matter whether the fire was started by demons or by a person , the house is burning so get the hell out. You dont need to pray to God about what to do. There are some things in life that the brain He gave is a sufficient enough resource.

65. Simon,
    My own answer in the matter would generally agree – if its genuinely a situation of NPD, it’s likely to be destructive to all involved and there is simply a need to get out. However, as a priest, I can’t just leave it there and speak responsibly. That is why I earlier answered that there was a need for counsel and support. Most people who are in the situation have had their own confidence deeply undermined and are sometimes only able to extract themselves with help. I’ve been involved in those situations and know just how difficult the work is.

    It is also important to have good counsel. The word “narcissist” gets thrown around rather easily in our culture and it is important, particularly when dealing with major life-changes to have some support and guidance. I do not think anyone (as I read the comments) is suggesting any sort of misguided suffering, sticking it out, etc.

    But, I have had some conversations with practicing psychologists (some just this week) on their experience in treating NPD. There are rare successes, but there was more success than I had known. Marriages are only one circumstance. There are also job related situations and others as well. Most pastors have had at least one experience with this in a congregation (far more common than the other way around). Thinking about it and understanding it is essential to finding a way forward that does as little destruction as possible.

    Finally, as in the last thoughts in the article itself, is the concern for the Narcissist themself. Is there any help? Is there a way to nurture repentance? What is to be done with such a soul? How are they to be understood?

66. My comments regarding dropping the narcissist like isnt directed to anyone here nor are my comnents about sticking it out for the sake of bearing your cross. HOWEVER, you have a wide base of Orthodox readers most which probably read your articles but never post. What I am attempting to communicate to women who may be wondering what to do and are too afraid to ask is to assure them they arent crazy, you are in as much danger as you think you are, and ‘Yes’ it is okay to leave in order to protect yourself and your children. Narcissism always results in the abuse of those around them. Abuse is intrinsic to the nature of the disorder.

67. Simon,
    We are in agreement on that. I would go even further and say that one ought to use their brain and protect themselves even from the non-clinical cases and ‘unless we have been given the grace to bear martyrdom, we can become culpable if unreasonably exposing ourselves to it’ – as the classic advise goes.
    I wouldn’t argue that if the building is burning you mustn’t run out!

    The concern with the narcissists’ salvation per se –rather than victims of their toxic behaviour– ought to make us, if we care, more vigilant and zealous in our own spiritual struggle, even for their good: the discernment needed to know how to help is to be found in great holiness.
    Saint Paisios whom we celebrated on yesterday would –as a blanket statement in his prayers- cry out to God about all sinners and sufferers: “if only I was as holy as You had planned for me, I could help save them all, but it is my fault for not being that holy that they perish…”

68. I think you cannot forget that if you have family members who display the characteristics Simon suggested, just walking away isn’t always a perfect solution. Healing may take place in a number of ways. And more than that, faith may take us into areas that “justice” won’t. It’s always important for a person to protect himself or herself from harm. But love works in different ways than a kind of common self-interest would suggest. There are many toxic relationships between parent and child, but an elderly parent, for example, becomes dependent and helpless. In that case, someone has to discern what their faith tells them. It isn’t black and white. And frankly, I believe in all aspects of my life, yes, I do need to pray to God what to do. I have found that contrary to what it seems your assumption might be about prayer, Simon, God does not suggest we subject ourselves to abuse, and rather leads away from it and to sanity.

69. I would add to my previous comment that, particularly in cases where one’s sanity or stability is threatened, prayer helps to create a sense of order and clearer sight — particularly if you are dealing with a manipulator. This, at least, is my experience.

70. Dino, I understand the intention of your comments. But, please, keep in mind the general readership and that there are probably many women and some men who exhibit patterns of codependency and will misunderstand what you intended. If codependent persons hear the words “if only I was as holy as You had planned for me, I could help save them all, but it is my fault for not being that holy that they perish…” they will internalize that sentiment and stay with their narcissistic partners with the understanding that the salvation of that person is their responsibility and if only they were as holy as God had intended them to be then that person would have been saved and things would be different. AND they will be motivated by shame to do so. That short prayer will in the mind of the codependent partner illicit feelings of guilt because if they were ‘as holy as God planned for them to be’ things would be different and; therefore, ‘it is my fault.’ That is exactly what a codependent person will hear. When we discuss these kinds of issues we have to be sensitive to the needs of the people with the greatest degree of vulnerability to these issues.

    People who are married to narcissists are married to them for a good reason: They were targeted by the narcissist. The narcissist doesn’t plan the targeted attack–they just do it naturally. A well-rounded person with a healthy self-esteem will find a narcissistic person unbearable. A codependent person will almost certainly mistake narcissist traits for strengths. However Paisios’ prayer is to be understood it should NOT be understood as implying that the marriage and the salvation of the narcissist is the responsibility of the codependent victim.

71. ” It isn’t black and white. ”
    Indeed! Nothing in this world is black and white. Nothing! Within ourselves and without….
    and even with split second life saving decisions, when we cry out “oh God!” or “help!” or are in mute fearful silence with the heart toward God…it is still prayer. There is never a time we need not pray. Never.

72. With the glorification of martyrdom that I see in Orthodoxy…I can easily see a man or woman thinking, ‘This abusive relationship is my cross and I must bear it.’ Almost every Orthodox book I have read has something about the acceptance of suffering in one’s own life and embracing the cross of selfless sacrifice for the love of others. Even Dino’s comments imply that grace may be given to someone to endure the behavior of the narcissist, which is abusive. But, somehow I have totally misunderstood all that. Frankly, the degree of cognitive dissonance I’m feeling right now is blowing my mind. ‘God does not suggest we subject ourselves to abuse’–Really?? Every Orthodox martyr and most of the saints willingly subjected themselves to abuse and death–and some even ran to it when they just as easily could have run from it.

73. Simon, I think you’ll find in reading the Gospels, for example, that Christ picked His battles. There was a time when He had to face His suffering, and before that it was “not His time.”

    In life, there are times when suffering or injustice is inevitable, and sometimes that happens because we love and because we are faithful — it’s the way the world will meet our faith. There are times to bear humiliation. But God does not tell us that this is all we “deserve.” Within that context, we understand why we bear suffering and the love that prompts us to forbearance, patience. It is a question overall of spiritual growth, really.

    I believe you have spoken here of your love for your child, for whom I’m sure you make sacrifices. That does not make you a fool. Caring for a child can mean losing sleep, missing work, doing all kinds of things that are not simply in our own self-interest. And how parents do suffer for their children, and there are children who suffer for parents. Love is not about rules and legalism.

74. “Every Orthodox martyr and most of the saints willingly subjected themselves to abuse and death–and some even ran to it when they just as easily could have run from it.”
    What I have read is in times of persecution some Saints were martyrs and most ran to the hills, caves, wilderness, to hide. That’s how I understand it. Point being, again, there is no cut and dry answer.
    There are many ways to embrace our cross.
    I don’t know what you are looking for Simon. I think I can safely say we do not disagree with your point that we need to protect ourselves….

75. I say this this with all sincerity and then I’m going to absolutely leave it alone. I always feel like I’m dealing with double or triple speak when I’m talking with Orthodox folks. I understand that things can be complex and layered. That isn’t difficult to understand. But to glorify martyrs and martyrdom and a cruciform life and then act as if somehow you have been totally misunderstood when someone suggests that an Orthodox person might stay in an abusive relationship if they think they have the grace to do so seems like a contradiction in terms.

76. St Paisios made a point of explaining that a weakness of those who haven’t consecrated their entire being to Christ with the renunciation that that implies, is that they inevitably “belong to some, more than they belong to others”. Such partiality is proof of spiritual work still needed.

    Haven’t consecrated their entire being to Christ…hmmm…so are you implying that if someone had consecrated their entire being to Christ that there is no suffering too great?

77. Simon,
    I agree. Much of the language of the cruciform life and martyrdom can be way too easily misunderstood and cause great damage to certain souls. The Cross always assumes a certain voluntary aspect. You’re very much on target viz. the narcissist. The victim has been targeted and often drawn unwittingly into these abusive relationships. Indeed, in my pastoral experience in these settings, it has almost always been the case that the victim has a false idea about their call to suffer or endure, or has been berated into thinking it’s their fault, etc. The first thing, for me as a pastor, is to strengthen the health of the victim so that they can see clearly enough and have enough strength to get out – and then to endure the onslaught that inevitably begins.

    These situations are toxic and are not the stuff of martyrdom, per se, other than the case of every victim in every situation. The boundary-less existence of the true, clincial narcissist, is not a safe place for anyone. It is not the place for endurance. They can be loved, but from a distance – i.e. behind proper boundaries.

    The background (too often unspoken) surrounding martyrdom presumes a lot and can too easily be misunderstood. The tradition surrounding martyrs is quite early and comes out of a world in which the martyrs have little or no choice. The writings are to strengthen the community for such suffering and endurance. Translated into our present setting, it can be twisted into very wrong things – to a kind of masochism that is itself sinful.

    One of the reasons I stress the need for support and counsel is to obviate the mistaken notion that we must endure such relationships. Of course, there are priests and pastors, poorly-trained, who might wrongly counsel such nonsense. It’s more than a pity. It’s a tragedy. Your words are spot on.

78. I believe Saint Paisios’ implication on that matter is merely that you cannot have true love without renunciation first. It’s a very classic notion to be found across all patristic thought.
    Of course, to the measure one has achieved the end of all virtues (divine, cosmic love), suffering is perceived less from the point of view we think of it (i.e. from the center of the ego) and more from an entirely different angle (that of love: the Cross of Christ). That is kenosis. It is the suffering of God, which we cannot properly call by that name.
    Parsing further and further when we have limited experience of these realities of God’s grace can easily lead to misinterpretation though.

79. Thanks Janine, Paula, Simon, Dino,
    You know before this article by Father and comments , I did not know the term NPD. Looking back, my brother in law, who we buried 8 mos. back, suffered from this disorder. I just always thought he suffered from jerk-itis! My sister suffered terribly with him for 57 years. She should have left him years ago. Simon says they unknowingly target their victims, seeking one who is codependent…or one quickly becomes that. I look back at an incident which occurred shortly before their marriage. He and my sis fit his description to a “T.” Yet, like Janine’s friend, his suffering with cancer tilled the soil of his heart before dying. He never admitted wrong in his life, always had the last word. Yet he changed through cancer.
    I usually took him to treatment. I actually saw this once powerful Marine brig sergeant break down and weep asking the oncologist, “Doc, why aren’t I getting better?” I spoke at his funeral. Oh how I pray he is accepting our Lord’s love toward him in this moment! And sis loved him through all this. I never loved him in life, didn’t even like him, but my heart too softened toward him seeing his suffering …I loved him those last few months. It was mentioned above that we don’t run toward suffering. But when it presents itself to us, at the Opportune Moment, through God’s grace, we accept it.

80. It is also a pity that in English “martyrdom” lacks the clarity of ancient Greek that created this word. In the original it means “witnessing”. A martyr is an indisputable witness testifying to Christ’s joyous trampling down death by death. It’s not some miserable dolorous submission.

81. Good points Simon. In reading the stories of many of the Marytrs it is clear that the people who do the torturing and killing certainly have a narcissistic component to their personalities.

    So, as noted, it has to be on a case by case basis. Seeking one’s own safety and sanity and for one’s children is going to be the rule.

82. Simon, the discussion I was having with you was about the need for prayer and discernment in all circumstances. I took issue with the suggestion that it was not, and expressed my experience that my faith helped me out of abusive and manipulative circumstances. And yes, indeed, there are times I have suffered for love because I felt it was appropriate.

    I do not think it’s appropriate to conflate in that same conversation other things you may have heard or your impressions from others who are Orthodox that are not even relevant to the point I was making. I cannot answer for others nor for your impressions of things you may have heard elsewhere.

83. Thanks for that story, Dean

84. Elder Aimilianos had a great pedagogy on this. He counselled joy and watchfulness first. The first counsel to one who is considering going any further than this basis (of joy and watchfulness) – e.g. who sees a zeal being stoked inside for ascesis or for suffering for those in need – would normally be the same again: ‘gauge your joy!’ If it ‘goes down’, things are suspect. If it increases, you can continue without fear – but (this important) only with a blessing from such a pedagogue. He would often, advise distancing from certain situations (as Father explained) and a little endurance in other smaller things.
    Joy and watchfulness also naturally disolve our attachments to anything that isn’t God.
    He would always clarify that we can only really love if we love with God’s love.

85. Dino, very true about “witnessing” vs. “martyrdom.” It has been a very important distinction and discernment for me.

86. Early in the comments stream I referenced the pre-communion prayer that says ‘I am the chiefest of sinners’. Certainly this prayer could be read as endorsing an abusive relationship by a victim of such relationship. I pray that this does not happen but I can certainly see how it could. The existence of these prayers are to stimulate the heart to look to God for repentance and to turn one’s life around to walk in the life of Christ. Victims in relationship with someone with NPD, need to be able to say to themselves that maintaining the ‘status quo’ of that relationship endorses or worse, sanctions the abusive behaviors. Not only for the sake and soul of the victim, but for the abuser as well, the relationship must be dissolved.

    I’m grateful to both Simon and Fr Stephen for their clarity to be careful and clear regarding the ‘making the boundaries’ around such personalities. The tragedy of such a personality in the clergy is tragedy beyond measure regarding the number of souls that might be ‘caught up’ in this dysfunctional relationship. I’m grateful also that this is rarely seen.

87. At July 12, 2:12 Fr Stephen describes his thinking about appropriate therapy methods. As a scientist and Orthodox person I endorse these methods as well.

    Last for those who have the strength to leave, I shall also endorse what Simon said, it is definitely right to leave such relationships. He described a burning building as metaphor—an apt description. For those who doubt themselves, please get help. From pastor and therapist if possible.

88. Am I the only person who is weary of divorce being the only acceptable answer? Someone decides that your spouse is too far gone, and then everyone washes their hands of you. You’re just an abuse victim, and you should leave. Doesn’t anyone else see how disempowering this can be?

    I’m not arguing that divorce or separation isn’t the right answer in other cases (specifically in cases of physical violence– but NPD (or HPD) and physical violence (ASPD) are not always co-mormid). But it’s become such a go-to, pat answer that there’s no real help left for those of us who seek to forge a different path. In the years that it took me to learn how NOT to be a victim (by changing myself), I have had to constantly explain my behavior to well-meaning people who, in their opinions, thought I should pursue divorce. Heck, I would have had much greater community support if I had.

    Please don’t construe my comments as supporting that people suffer in marriages unwillingly. But, as Fr. Stephen and Dino have said– willingness to bear a cross with love does not automatically mean codependent. Often, people’s good-will efforts to “help” just end up being the blind trying to lead the blind.

89. Thoughtful,
    Your comment is indeed why I preferred to say (as I did originally) that this stuff needs to be approached with counsel and support. Blanket statements are simply problematic.

90. Please forgive me Thoughtful Spouse. Your comment suggests the strength you have. God bless your relationship.

    My response is the in regard to unchecked behavior and the typical inability of those around it to deal with it in a healthy way.

91. Now I will add a confession of sorts. Early in my life I let something happen to someone young and innocent. I did not stop ‘the perpetrator’, for want of a better description, because in part I was in denial that such a thing was happening. The fallout from such a denial is a scar on the innocent person’s life. The fact that I let it happen is a difficult cross for me to bear. I have confessed it to my confessor and now here. I am more ‘vigilant’ now. But I also pray to God that I will not have a hardened heart. We are taught self-emptying love in the Orthodox Church. May God grant this to us and strengthen us to say and do God’s words and God’s will.

92. Dee,

    These are fragile things you speak of. Thank you for using discretion. I suggest continuing to do so.

93. Thank you, Father Stephen and Dee, for your kindness. Something I’ve thought recently– that it’s only a Christian who can say without cognitive dissonance, “I love someone who hurts me.” Transformed by Christ’s love, it becomes a statement of hope..

    God bless you and yours, too, Dee.

94. Dee, Such burdens are the worst. I sympathize deeply with you. Thank you for sharing such a difficult experience.

95. Forgive me for thinking aloud.

    I’ve been thinking about this topic in my own mind for awhile now – long before this article. At that time I was wondering if the original, ancestral sin of Adam and Eve was a sin of narcissism – the desire to something greater than what was offered by God. I’m not sure I see a deep seated shame there though.

    Stemming from that thought, I could see how most of the sins I commit arise from my own belief that I deserve something that was either taken from me, denied me, threatens me, or that I just don’t have. That supported my original thesis, but I’m not sure that shame is necessarily the motivator in all of these cases.

    I have even wondered if narcissism is the “Sin that leads to death”, mentioned in 1 John 5:16, as it is the one sin that the guilty party sees as having no need for repentance, and being the first sin of man, is the most primal to humanity.

    I see it as a common thread, but Fr has stated that clinical narcissism is truly different, so I’m not sure how to organize my thoughts anymore. I don’t know if clinical narcissism is truly different; I wonder if its about degrees, more than about something that you either have or don’t have.

96. Dee…I don’t know what to say…when my heart is touched words usually sound awkward. If you were in front of me I’d just give you a hug. But due to this unique mode of communication I have more time to think and respond, so I say this:
    I always see it as bravery when people disclose a deep struggle with tact, which is what you did…with a sensitivity for all involved, including the hearers. I admire that. And after all, we are a loving community here despite our squabbles and disagreements…isn’t that what families do?! In that respect you didn’t have to share your burden with us and we’d care for you just the same…but you did. And in doing so the family bond actually strengthens. Right? It sure helps me to understand you just a little bit better. And most of all, to sympathize with you. Forgive me for such an analytical response…I just thank you and pray God’s grace for you and all involved.

97. Dee, I’m so sorry for that burden. Many prayers, and I can sympathize. But on a positive note, it truly sounds like you have really made positive growth from there. And I will congratulate you on that. Sadly our innocence learns from experience (and there are those who deliberately manipulate that innocence) and you are not alone. The pressures are sometimes unimaginable to us and it is easier to blame ourselves for what happens.

    Thoughtful, it seemed to me striking that it was the two obviously “female” commenters here who kept insisting things aren’t necessarily black and white. And I agree, it is somewhat of a putdown to the usually female spouse who seems to bear this burden to wonder why she can’t see that she should leave. But really, none of us knows the fullness of a relationship well enough to judge that altogether. The view from the inside is different. I had a friend who went through many many rounds of counseling with her spouse, until finally it was time to part. (He went from bad to worse.) But she gave it all the fullness of her generous and gracious spirit — and she would not be the awesome person she is if she had not done that, from my point of view. She lives a filled life and continues to really bloom in her independence and with a full family including grandkids and career. Her mother went a different route, with an equally splendid, loving, and gracious spirit, nursing her husband after an accident left him stricken in the last couple of years of his life. (She was also a second Mom to me.) Who is to judge? There is no one alternative for anybody.

98. PS we keep speaking about marriage, but narcissists with the personality traits described throughout this post and comments are not just husbands. They are also wives, grandparents, fathers, mothers, children, grandchildren, and a host of other relationships. It is just not always a simple cut and dried method to self-protection and the best outcome; it’s a trade off and a process, and sometimes impossible to completely disentangle for all kinds of reasons.

99. Matthew,
    In that we are describing what is a psychological disorder, it would be incorrect to think about it as a sin. It is a disorder whose consequences are quite sinful. But sin is not a legal problem – it’s simply the work of death within us. It manifests itself as the things we call sin. The things that have the most serious consequences in their destruction of the soul are those things that involved a long, persistent, fully cognizant exercise of the will against that which is good. The “sin that leads to death” is never really defined. I personally think that it has no definition, because it is not just one thing. St. John’s statement simply said that there is such a thing as a sin that leads to death.

100. Father, this was a powerful subject, and I appreciate your insights into the disorder, as you have just described it. This was your initial paragraph that most affected me:

     “I once read a book that described a certain form of narcissism as the near perfect embodiment of evil. If so, the person suffering from such should be treated as though they were possessed. For the pain inside that world is even greater than the pain outside. Imagine a life without awe or wonder, without love for the other, with no sense of anyone other than yourself. It is a form of psychological hell.”

     To me, there is a subtle distinction between “an embodiment of evil” and one who is possessed, and in seeking an example in the Bible I find the disciples unable to cure such a one, having to ask Christ why, having seemingly been delegated the power, they had failed. His response was, I think, that something on the order of an intensity of fasting and prayer was necessary.

     When something like this is occurring in a person we love, helplessly to recognize the parameters you describe is indeed to stand at the edge of an abyss. Our response can only be that of the disciples, and yet in that case Christ did heal. My thanks to everyone who contributed to this thread.

101. Sorry Fr. I didn’t mean to suggest that it was a “sin” in the sense of a legal issue. I meant that it stands against, “not my will, but thine will be done”. Something I find myself afoul of frequently.

     Not something to tick off on a scorecard, but an abiding cancer that I cannot seem to shake, and something that I see all around me in a greater or lesser degree in others.

     That is all.

102. Am I the only person who is weary of divorce being the only acceptable answer?

     I think of divorce as a purposeful and deliberate step someone takes with the support of a stable familial and spiritual community. I just want be clear that the annoying asshole that we dont like at work isnt necessarily a narcissist nor is an overbearing spouse, or whoever. By clinical narcissism all we mean is that the person has received an actual diagnosis from a clinical psychologist not just a consensus determination by a mob of people with pitchforks and torches. So whereas I agree with you that divorce is as a rule taken as a last resort I stand by what I said. Narcissism is dangerous and I would not hesitate to support a person who decided to cut ties with the narcissistic party.

103. Sorry, I posted my last comments in passion.

     I attribute my addictions, my moments of rage, my frustrations – in short a lot of my failures as testaments to my distance from God, and consequently as my love for self. Self + Love = Narcissism

     Perhaps clinical narcissism could be distinguished as being so far over the line, that self awareness of the condition is completely lost. I would say though that if I were confessing sins – I would lead from my love of self and then move on to the manifestations of that selfishness in my life.

104. What about the trauma and suffering inflicted on us by them? Their sinful ways have no consequence?

105. I do know someone clinically diagnosed with NPD and who was actually receiving treatment for it. He was appointed to a rather high office (he’s not American) and then stopped going to appointments (that may or may not have had to do with the new responsibilities). He is married. She seems happy although I don’t know her personally. Curiously all of his life he’s benefited from a character trait of being highly oppositional, controversial. He picks fights and manages to make them political and come out on top; friends who knew him tell me he did this in high school as well. I met him once and he gave the impression that he thought himself quite beautiful. The marriage seems pretty solid, however I can’t say that his leadership was a blessing for those who depended on it (quite the opposite if people understood the destructive effects), but people find him charismatic. Thinking about it, there are things that seem rather classically evil about all of it, striking that many don’t recognize it but perhaps it should not be.

106. I would rather the ‘evil’ be recognized, not so much to ‘out’ the person in some sort of retributive manner, but to curtail the damage.

     Our society in the US seems to generate people without a healthy grounded ‘center’. (Which honestly can only be Christ). Someone who is extremely ‘self-centered’ by the definition of NPD, seem attractive for that reason, is my hunch.

     I too have seen the ‘charismatic’ feature in such a person. I would not hazard a guess about their marriage, though.

107. Esther,
     Obviously their actions have terrible consequences.

108. Matthew,
     I think there is a difference between self-love and narcissism (as I’m using the term here in its clinical sense). Narcissism is best understood as the inability to bear shame (whatever the cause). It is displayed as what appears to be a self-love, but it’s more like a fear of shame. That might be something of the same mechanism that underlies most self-love. But it has a different dynamic in this specific case.

109. Dee,
     American culture is deeply enmeshed in a culture of shame that is unrecognized and not acknowledged. Public shaming of others is seen by many as “strength” when it is nothing of the sort. Psychologically speaking (to say nothing of the spiritual) we are a deeply, deeply dysfunctional culture – one that is rich, armed and dangerous, to boot.

110. Thank you for your clarification Fr Stephen. I appreciate the distinction you’re drawing and it’s importance.

111. Thank-You Fr. for your thought provoking insights. I am pondering them.

112. Father and Dee, absoljtely agree with both of you.

     Father Stephen wrote:
     “American culture is deeply enmeshed in a culture of shame that is unrecognized and not acknowledged. Public shaming of others is seen by many as “strength” when it is nothing of the sort.” It’s exceptionally troublesome. First, it’s not what our faith teaches us. Secondly, if we’re speaking of public fihues, we have lost the public space to speak about policy rather than persons. It works two ways: either the individual becomes a personal target, or criticusm of policies is perceived as personal and offensive. In both cases the wrong outcome. It’s like everybody is at playground level. The way I understand our faith, it distinctly doesn’t matter who did what first. Projection also accompanies our own narcissism, an important component.

113. Fr. Freeman,
     I loved the 12 points you wrote in your comment on 7/12/18. At the same time it makes me think or feel frighten, unworthy, even undeserving of all the times I have been rescued from something stupid not knowing any better.. There were times in my life were God is all I had, banked on, lived on, and believed on. I was an odd ball, a square, an outsider who held to the “first principle” as I called it. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and mind and your neighbor as yourself. It definitely is a proven survival strategy, but if not careful, and I emphasize careful, if leaving your neighbor out of the triangle can become the pitfall for Christians into Narcissism . As I matured and lived a little more into age my faith/trust in people and neighbors waned accordingly. I found that balance is everything as we approach the pitfalls, with the best of our psychological systems at hand of health vs. excess. We live in a very dis-eased time and it is hard to not be contaminated by it. We also have to hold realistic boundaries within our self in relationship to reality with God, as God is no greater visible and present as his people are able to manifest , {or help us} though still greater and existing beyond all of us thru Nature etc. Narcissism is terrible to live with and so is shame. The world is full of it, America is full of it, taking it apart we’d have to take whole social structures apart. And so we live in it cautiously on a daily basis. We would all become undone………all I can do is pray….God have mercy.
     Thank you Fr. Freeman for the article.

114. The point that narcissism can affect us, eg that someone whom you couldn’t call a narcissist in any of his dealings might exhibit 100% of the NPD behaviour only during his arguments with his wife (-in a way that you couldn’t differentiate him from the clinical -) , means that we have one more reason and angle from which to be watchful (or as the Philo kala would call it Neptic).

115. The second part of the title of this article is to see the face of God. A verse that speaks of this is I John 3:2,3.
     “Beloved, we are God’s children now; it does not yet appear what we shall be, but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. And everyone who thus hopes in him purifies himself as he is pure.”
     One of the Beatitudes says that the pure in heart shall see God. And in Hebrews is written that without holiness (purity) no one shall see the Lord. Interesting that this purity will enable us to stand before God without shame, because it is this which makes our soul luminous like His and thus to see Him as He is.

116. Dean,
     I am coming into this conversation a bit late.
     It seems technical blog difficulties are the reason, I was not able to post, and both Father Stephen and Fr. John (who maintains the Ancient Faith web site and is visiting my parish this weekend – what are the odds of that?!) confirmed.

     Thank you to all for great comments, especially Simon. I may not always agree with all his opinions, but on this subject, they were spot on! I pray it’s not because he has ‘personal experience’ (as I do in this matter, having been married for 25 years to the type of person described here – and now freed from it)… May God spare others such difficulties and pain!

117. As an elder RN with a long history of psychiatric experience, I am not at all sure about equating narcissism with fear of shame. I think that may be projection on our part, seeing in them what is not really there, but is in us. Shame is a higher brain function and my sense is that narcissists have a fear they are not going to survive, a lower brain function. They seem to be afraid of seeming weak and vulnerable to others, to be considered prey, as others are considered predators. Thus they are not going to acknowledge that they might be mistaken or wrong about anything since that is not, to their way of thinking, survival oriented.

118. Bonnie,
     Forgive me, but if you read clinical studies, such as those by Gershen Kaufman, on the mechanism of shame, you’ll see that it is rooted in neurobiological affects, which is a very instinctive, lower function. Images and experiences get associated with producing the emotion we call shame, which has many layers, but, at its core, it is quite primitive – we can see it in infants. There is a fair amount of clinical material on the role of the shame affect in narcissism. I’m writing, having done my homework in the clinical material, and not just off the top of my head. I’ve also consulted with several clinical psychologists on the topic for the past 7 years. Actually, the fear associated with survival is a weaker instinct than shame.

     And it is not “fear of shame” that is being discussed here, but the unwillingness or inability to bear it.

119. I thought you said their fear of shame caused them to reject it?

120. when you say their inability…. it sounds like they are not responsible.

121. I think Father Freeman’s advise to build/take part in the communal support structures of the Church is well considered. The need for a Spiritual Father that can provide loving, pastoral support and direction is central to this issue IMHO. Too often, we simply try to “make our way through it” and that is not always the best avenue in our relationships. For ourselves, whether we are in such a relationship or aware of one, confession is of great importance. Just my thoughts.

122. I have been at this a long time…I have seen communal support structures last for a given time, then dissolve. A need for a spiritual father , on earth? never met one…

123. Agata, you cant be raised by someone like my father and not become something of a narcissist yourself. Ive been told by people I trust that Im a very manipulative person. I dont consciously plan to be manipulate anyone. I just do manipulative things. Its very nonconscious. I try to be very self-aware, but it is hard to be aware of something that operates at such a nonconscious level.

124. Esther,
     Esther, it sounds like you might not be familiar with the Orthodox faith, but if you are and I’ve misinterpreted your comment, please forgive me. The people in the Orthodox faith participate in parishes in which there is confession. Confession is part of the communion experience. Byron refers to the priest who is typically the parishioner’s confessor.

     As someone who participates and is in communion with my parish, I have found the confession experience and the support of the parish vital. The confessor is typically the person who is the ‘spiritual father’ that Byron describes. I’m 63 years and have had a very full and ‘eventful’ life, in humble pursuit of God in the form that I knew Him before I became Christian, about 3 years ago. And I know there are others in among the commentators in this blog who have also had an eventful life and will attest to the importance of the role of the confessor/spiritual father that Byron describes, as I do.

125. Simon,
     May God give you strength, help and guide you! Just you trying to see it in yourself and work on it is more than most people do.
     I will pray for you. I have three sons and lots of guilt that they have the father that they do. I got away from him (after a long time and a lot of learning about his condition ‘after the fact’) but he is still their father and it’s more difficult for them. Thankfully they are adults now, so his grip on them is a little less. The conversations you initiated about the commandment to “honor [an abusive] parent” (and resulting comments) have given me helpful vocabulary to talk to them in more difficult situations their father puts them in…
     Of course the most heartbreaking for me is seeing those glimpses of increased selfishness and manipulating in them. I pray a lot! And that helps the most (at least me, I give them to God as His, as there is not much I can do any more)!
     Glory and thanks to Him for bringing you into the Orthodox Church! There is healing and there is Truth here. May He grant you both richly!

126. Thank you Agata.

     I have spent the entire second half of my life overcoming what my father did in the first half. You I’m very sensitive to the plight of women. Even in the comments in this thread I was thinking about my mother the whole time. My father broke that woman. And it wasn’t that she didn’t try to escape, but by the time she managed to build up the strength to do it the damage was done. My mother was one of Jehovah’s Witnesses. And when she would get to where she didn’t think that she could take anymore she would go to the JW elders for support and those halfwits told her that God hates a divorce, she should respect theocratic headship in the family, and that her faithful example might lead him to the Truth. It ruined her mind. I hate to say this because I love my mother, but decades of abuse, unhealed wounds, and instability in her life turned her into the very thing she hates. She is a bottomless pit of need.Three times she was nearly homeless and my wife and I came through for her, but as soon as you cross her there’s hell to pay. She never thinks about anything I’ve done for her only what I haven’t done.

     We live in a world that is as ugly as it is beautiful…I haven’t been given the grace to understand it.

127. Simon, what a very difficult thing to bear. You have my prayers. I have had a somewhat similar experience in certain respects. Many prayers. I don’t know much about your own religious life, except that here you have indicated you have been considering Orthodoxy — I will make a perhaps unusual suggestion that you consider prayer with the Holy Mother. Father Stephen or another guide could advise you about ways to do this. Just a suggestion from my experience which may offer some help. God bless.

128. I particularly liked that Fr Stephen stopped short of saying there is no hope for narcissists. Modern psychology says there is no cure. Therapists refuse to accept them as patients.
     But Fr Stephen, while realizing the seriousness of the disorder and the obstacles to repentance that are inherent to the condition; still suggests that perhaps God can find a way…
     Mrs Diane Langberg, a highly experienced councelor with great certifications, also insists that one must concede that people are free, regardless. We must respect that freedom. There is nothing impossible to God. Check this out
     https://youtu.be/4BU3pwBa0qU

     Fr Stephen used narcissistic personality disorder as an example of pathological shame.
     In any case the main point of the post is that, there is a healthy shame, that well balanced people can have, that is essential for repentance. The realization of our brokenness and sinfulness can bring us to compunction, which is, a combination of sorrow for our defilement, awareness of having turned away from the God of love, the shame of Isaiah, and the assurance that the Father wants us to return. It is a joyful sorrow.

129. Simon,
     I’m grateful for your participation and presence in this blog. I cannot fathom what sacrifices you’ve made to attempt to reach your mother or how miraculous your life is for your capacity to understand and reflect upon it, with the grace you have. This capacity is obviously a gift from God.

     Janine, Simon is Orthodox. But our prayers are for his God-given strength and endurance to bear these wounds. I pray for you too Janine. I believe I had read you had a similar experience of difficulty with your mother. I am also grateful for your participation and willingness to share your thoughts and heart.

130. Thank you so much Dee. God bless.

131. Thank you so much for your kindness, Dee. God bless

132. PS (Sorry for the double post)

     I guess I would just like to add that in addition to help to bear our struggles (which suggestion is appreciated very much, Dee) , I really believe in healing — that our faith is therapeutic. It seems that David Robles, above, expresses that similar hope. And I think therapy is indeed part of growth, theosis. After all, Christ is our Physician. Anyway, this is part of the suggestion for prayer with the Theotokos. Peace and thank you again.

133. Belatedly I want to thank you so much for your kind words, Paula. That was one of the most difficult posts I’ve written. And admittedly I regretted posting it but hoped it might be helpful. What stories we share in this blog are frequently heart-rending matters. I’m grateful for your loving presence and words.

134. Esther,
     I do not think so much in terms of responsibility – very often it’s a non-productive way of thinking. Someone cannot/will not do something. Are they responsible? Perhaps so. But saying only means figuring out who’s to blame which doesn’t heal anyone or make anything better. The point is our healing/salvation, not figuring out where the blame lies. If someone cannot/will not bear the burden of shame, they can be hampered, bound up with all kinds of problems. But, since none of us is able to do everything we should, there is only room for mercy and kindness and prayer for their health and salvation.

     A figure in one of Dostoevsky’s novels says “Each man is guilty of the sins of everyone.” There has been much written about this and it is a profound mystery – and I think it is true. It is also the case that until we know this, we will not be able to truly love as God loves. He took upon Himself the guilt/sin of everyone, though He alone is without sin. The imitation of Christ is the only way forward in this life.

135. Esther,
     I prefer not to use the term “spiritual father,” because it implies greater gifts and ministry than are true except in rare cases. I prefer “confessor.” And it is not only priests who are “Confessors” in Orthodoxy. I know of some very wise nuns who hear confessions (and then send the penitent to a priest for absolution). They are sought out for their wisdom and compassion. This is quite ancient.

136. Father, thanks for your comment to Esther especially regarding blame, because you mention something I wanted to ask about. It occurred to me that there hadn’t been a discussion here about a difference between shame and guilt. Could you please address this in terms of how you see it?

     I feel there is a difference between what allows for acknowledgement/confession that allows us to grow and move forward, and a kind of permanent sense that we are “horrible” that does not. Also, in terms of narcissism, is it only shame we’re talking about here, or is it also that to feel guilty is unbearable?

137. My late wife struggled against her own body in many ways all of her life. Some of those physical thorns in the flesh were part of her familial DNA. Those thorns led her, tempted her toward sins, the sins of the fathers… Those things literally masked who she was and made it quite difficult to live with her.

     When she died it was shown to me by grace that those largely dropped off. I am now 100% certain of the Ressurection.

     When our transformed bodies are restored to us those thorns will no longer be there.
     Shame can be a part of that as well.

     I had a shame that went back to a single moment when I was four years old that motivated me to act in hateful, narrcissitic ways. When I faced it (only took 65 years, 30 in the Church), by the grace of God, a great healing occurred in my life. Still the shame had entered into my flesh and so I still have to work at it.

138. Janine,
     Many define guilt as “how I feel about what I have done,” while shame is “how I feel about who I am.” I find that there is often a very thin line there and things bleed into one another. There can certainly be a formal category of “guilt,” as in, “it is my fault that this happened, etc.” But sin is not a legal matter – it is ontological – a matter of our being. What I have done also affects who I am, whether I would like to think they are unconnected or not. Our culture, being rooted in legal thought, sees guilt in those terms, and it is very unhelpful. This article might be of use.

139. Simon (@July 15, 2018 at 11:44 pm),
     Yours are some deep words, and wounds, my brother. Pardon that I repeat this story once again, but it wasn’t until I heard your Christian name, Simon of Cyrene, that I realized the depth of your wounds. No one carried The Cross that day except for Christ…and Simon. Speaks volumes…
     I had remembered you from when you first came here and how you spoke of your past. But not only that, there was (and still is!) a force to be reckoned with in your presence, not to be forgotten (as others do come and go). Then you stopped commenting…only to resurface…and we learned through Father that you were baptized (oh what joy!). And it is of no minor significance that you chose your new name as Simon…of Cyrene. It is in that name that I can understand the extent of your burden, without having to know the full details, and given the bits (very significant bits) that you have shared here.

     You had to go through hell to be able to understand the plight of women. Further, you had to go through hell to understand the plight of mankind. Christ gave you that cross, Simon, a long long time ago…when He saw you in the womb…before the foundations, He knew you’d “be”. How He honors us, His creatures…made a little lower than the angels!

     May God give you the grace to understand the ugly and the beautiful. Only He can give you peace…and I believe wholeheartedly He will, and is doing so even now, hiddenly. As well, many times we find answers, in bits and pieces, in a manner most unexpected. I have in mind here that in the process of time, He is going to show you a lot more through your child.

     God’s great blessings Simon. Glad you are here…and I thank God you were led to the truth of the Orthodox Faith. Someone said this is the place you find healing…yes, indeed…I am finding that out myself. It’s a long, long road….

140. Al-Anon has been a great help to me in dealing with these issues. There are similar programs for co-dependents of those who suffer from diseases other than alcoholism and drug addiction. I still struggle with detachment. It does not mean that I do not love my drug addicted alcoholic. It does mean that I need to have clear boundaries between us. The experience, strength and hope shared in meetings by others in situations similar to mine continues to be of inestimable value to me.

141. Simon,

     Thank you for your reply. I will pray for your Mom too.

     Could I ask you one final question? With your experience and wisdom, what would you advise me on the subject of dealing with my sons?
     When should I apply strictness (in pointing out their mistakes or perceived manipulations) and when to stick to forgiveness and silence? I tend to err on forgiveness and generosity, but that then from time to time it backfires, and my own suppressed emotions and resentments (at them, for not caring for me more, helping me more) ‘boil over’ and I explode… I throw a few ‘expletives’ doing the things I asked them to do myself – they come to – help, resentfully… I always regret loosing my temper and apologize, but is done. I don’t think I am a ‘bottomless pit of need’, just a small pit wanting some help here and there, because there are three of them, and one of me, and I am their servant and housekeeper and cook… But what you wrote resonated with me, as the other day my son said “You only ever see the negative…”

     Any thoughts on this?
     (I hope you will see this and are willing to answer, it’s important to me and feel you may have wise advise. Thank you.)

142. Christ gave you that cross, Simon, a long long time ago…when He saw you in the womb…before the foundations, He knew you’d “be”. How He honors us, His creatures…made a little lower than the angels!

     Paula, that might be the single best thing that anyone has ever said to me. Thank you for saying so.

143. I love the picture you have for this post. That little boy is now 6 years old and serves in the altar with his daddy, Deacon Matthew Garrett (who is the iconographer that painted that Pantocrator icon). We have been amazed how often that picture makes the rounds of the internet. I pray that little boy will grow to love God and keep the sweetness of his soul. -Lisa Garrett

144. Agata, Thank you for your prayers.

     I’m not sure that there’s much I can say. But I’ll tell you what I hear you saying and you can judge for yourself whether my response has any value.

     When should I apply strictness (in pointing out their mistakes or perceived manipulations) and when to stick to forgiveness and silence?

     I hear you saying: How do I get through to these knuckleheads?
     People are notoriously bad listeners and narcissists are the worst. Trying to communicate with someone with NPD about their mistakes and manipulations is a complete waste of time. There are a couple of challenges for people in relationships with the narcissists. First, you think that the narcissist sees their behavior as you do and would be willing to admit to their faults and change, as you are, if only they could see them. Second, you think that if you could only get them to see how their behaviors are hurting you then maybe the relationship can improve. And both of those are wrong. The problem with the first point is that you aren’t living in the same reality as the narcissist. When they do something that is obviously hurtful and that anyone could see is hurtful…they will not own it. Nope. Not at all. The problem with the second point is that its a trap. The trap you fall into is your own desire to reach them. In your desire to have a good relationship with your boys you think “If only they could see…” and so you try telling them how it is and then you try patience and forgiveness. But the whole time you’re going through these mental gymnastics trying to figure out what you can say or do to get through to them…they’re not even thinking about you. As a result it just ends up being an exercise in futility that leaves you frustrated. Now, I’m answering your question from the perspective of someone with children who have strong tendencies towards NPD. To the extent that they only exhibit situational narcissism, then to that extent you will see that my observations do not apply.

     my own suppressed emotions and resentments (at them, for not caring for me more, helping me more) ‘boil over’ and I explode… I throw a few ‘expletives’ doing the things I asked them to do myself

     I hear you saying: I am trapped in a cycle with my sons that in the end leaves me frustrated and angry.
     Usually this behavior occurs at the end of a cycle of many failed attempts at trying to communicate then a period of patience and forgiveness and when you’re finally fed up with being treated like you don’t matter and then ‘boom goes the dynamite.’ The only way to prevent the dynamite phase is to understand the cycle and not get into it.

     Here are a few final thoughts. Feel the burn. Accept that being in a relationship with anyone with narcissistic traits means that you are going to get hurt. Just accept it. And understand that acceptance doesn’t mean approval. To minimize the hurt you must set and enforce healthy boundaries, where “healthy” means “good for Agata.” Boundaries are necessary when dealing with any degree of narcissism. They put control that the narcissist wants back into your court. Break the cycle. When you speak to your sons and you can feel the NPD cycle kicking in, then you need to find a way to break the cycle–for your benefit. Do not address the narcissistic behavior or any of their behaviors. They won’t know what you’re talking about any way. You’re only setting yourself up for frustration by thinking that ‘maybe this time they’ll listen.’ Its not about you. When there’s something wrong in a narcissist’s life, then it’s your fault. Even if you weren’t there it’s still your fault. The narcissist will convince you–if you let them–that if you had acted differently then things would be better. Its just not true. How do you deal with that? One way is to invite them to get the hell out *ahem* I mean to ask them politely to leave. You don’t need to hear that, so ask them to leave. OR…you could mess with them just a little bit. Hear me out on this one. Let’s say in true narcissist fashion your sons being less than respectful. Right then say “Excuse me” and smile real big and hold it for a count of three and then abruptly get up and go into another room and say just loud enough to where they can hear you “Lord I know you said that trials would beset me, but why O Lord did you bring these miserable wretches into my life? Do you hate me Lord? Because I’m beginning to think you hate me.” Then real calmly go back into the room smiling from ear to ear and say “Okay, now where were we? Oh, yes, I remember. You were telling me how everything wrong in your life is my fault. Please, by all means continue!” I say that in jest, but it might help you to develop a sense of humor about their behavior–if it isn’t too egregious.

     I hope this helps. And my prayers are with you also.

145. Simon – I thought your last comment to Agata was very helpful – until the end. I would not recommend doing anything to intentionally provoke someone with NPD or similar problems. It will not improve their behavior but it will provoke a potentially violent response.

146. I would have thought that “I say that in jest” would have been understood as “Of course I’m joking.” I felt like I was coming off as a know-it-all and that the subject matter was…heavy. I apologize if the humor was inappropriate. It seems to me that a healthy sense of humor can ameliorate many of the negative effects from stress. Again I apologize for any misunderstanding I may have created.

147. Simon,
     Thank you, I LOVE your comment… will write more tomorrow…
     I just want to ask Fr. Stephen not to “touch” your comment, it’s precoius (to me at least). Your humor was wonderful….
     Agata

148. Oh Simon…Bravo to your response to Agata!! That comment is a keeper!
     And brother, I truly laughed out loud at your “jest” example…now that was good!
     God bless! And Agata….oh, you have your work cut out for you! Prayers to all!

149. Agata, there was something that was nagging me last night when I went to bed and this morning I realized what it was. It was this they come to – help, resentfully. Here is what I struck me. Every time I reread your comment I read “resentfully” as “but they do it out of guilt.” At the very least that tells me that your children are do not have NPD because a clinical narcissist doesn’t do anything that they don’t want to do. Which means that the narcissism that you are experiencing with your sons stems from wounds they bear from their father–if I have correctly understood what you have said previously. Clinical narcissists are never motivated by guilt or resentment. So that’s the good news. However, be aware that your own wounds from having experienced an abusive partner may have festered into its own kind of narcissism in yourself. That’s a very real possibility. Our wounds when left unattended can be disfiguring and take on a narcissistic quality. Just a thought.

150. Simon,

     Thank you again for all you wrote. You have no idea how much I appreciate it and how helpful it is!

     I laughed (to tears!) reading your suggestion. I am sure my boys would find it funny too (and true to the character they attribute to me, of a “overly religious nut”). However when I thought about what it would have been like if I had tried it with my ex, shivers went down my spine… It would have sent him into a rage (at my “manipulative’ness”, as did any of my honest tears of sorrow, hurt and frustration – which in time, I learnt to suppress, and accept the blame for everything…).

     I think you are very right, my sons are not NDP, they are just a bit selfish and a lazy teenagers, trying to get away with things…on many occasions they manage to comply with my requests. It’s my own frustrations (and lack of skills and solid resolve in dealing with them), compounded by the fact that there are three of them (each actually of very different personality) and one of me (to do everything in the house, yard, dog care, etc, etc, on top of a full time demanding and draining professional job [which I have for the benefit of all of us, lacking any other financial support]) is the issue. I have been trained to please (by the narcissist), to consider everything my fault, but deep inside resisting those feelings (without the skills to deal with it). If I only learnt to be more calm, assured, amicable and undemanding [as the holy people who entrust themselves and everything in their life to God fully, to tie this to other recent conversations on this blog], and then learnt to communicate my wishes and follow through on consequences when necessary, it would help all of us… I do agree that I have wounds that “festered into its own kind of narcissism”… May God grant me healing from those, and then may all around me heal too… I ask your prayers for that, as I will pray for the same for you..

     Simon, really, thank you so much for taking the time and thinking it through with me… I really appreciate it so so much, your time and sincerity. I would hug you if I could (may God grant me that some day!!)

     I think Father Stephen should award you the “comment of the year” for this!!! Somebody else got that award recently (based on his reply to me), so I think should be allowed to ask that for you! 😉

151. Simon,
     Thanks for your responses to Agata. There is an exercise place here called, “Break the Barriers.” Your answers did just that…great!

152. Simon – I apologize.

153. David Waite,
     Your comment was very accurate, your warning about doing that little “experiment” with a true NPD. I meant to add this comment to you in my reply to Simon, very true and valid warning to be careful…

154. I thought you sons were older. Being teenagers changes everything. First, it would be easier to split the red sea and walk across on dry ground than get a teenager to do anything let alone sons. Jesus said, “It is easier for a camel to fly over Jerusalem, than get teenage sons to listen for five minutes.” They’re out of their minds. They think they know it all, but they don’t know s#$t. It’s horrible. That’s why it’s open season on teenage sons. You should be messing with them ALL the time. Like before you go to bed at night you should sit down like Wile E. Coyote and draw up some plans, order some dynamite from ACME corporation, draw a fake tunnel on the wall, etc. That’s how you let boys know you love ’em–you take the time to mess with them. Put a rubber spider in their favorite cereal.

155. I order all of my rubber spiders from ACME. They’re indestructible!

156. Oh Simon,
     I wish I was that creative!
     Sometimes I think they do what you describe to me, make up new ways to mess with me… 🙂
     Thanks again for your help and encouragement, it came at a really needed time.
     May God grant you patience and fortitude in raising your little one. Your family is in my prayers.

157. Father, Simon….LOL!!!!

158. I wish I could share pictures of Micah with you. He’s my heart and soul.

159. Father,
     Could you give Simon my email?
     I’d love to see the photo of Micah and send him one of my ‘three trouble makers’… but only with your blessing…

160. Father Stephen,
     I can’t remember whether it was in the comments in this post or another, but I asked you earlier about any difference between guilt and shame, and you did reply.

     But following up on that, I was thinking that there is a difference between having shame placed upon you, and a kind of guilt or shame that comes from actually having done wrong or hurt someone (accidentally or not), that stems from an action one has taken. That is, a difference between a situation in which one has done nothing but rather has had something done to oneself, and one in which we have committed some act associated with guilt or shame. The example I’m thinking of is bullying, where bullying contracts a shame upon its victim that is hard to face; e.g. many abused children use denial to avoid the shame of victimization and the message that comes from it within the family circle. This may happen within wider circles of school or society. A person can feel shame for simply being a nominal member of a hated minority group. I think the same could be said of other types of abuse as well, even state violence. In these cases of victimization, so much of the sense of self depends on the presence or lack of it of other messages a person receives in their lifetime about themselves . Could you please give me your thoughts about this?

     I can give you a brief example. I was once shopping in a department store and another woman purchasing something at the counter while I waited was a rather charming woman with a French accent. This was many years ago. She wore multiple bracelets stacked on her arm as was a kind of fashion then. But the jangling bracelets parted as she reached to pay the saleswoman, and I saw a number tattooed on the arm underneath that had been covered up by the bracelets. That number could only have meant she had been a child in a Nazi concentration camp. She looked up and saw what I suppose was a stricken look of recognition on my face (my grandparents were child survivors of genocide) and I immediately understood I had violated some boundary, although unwittingly. She left quickly. It all happened in silence and in a few moments. We didn’t even have any conversation, but I never forgot it.

     The other example that comes to mind is a funny one — about pet dogs. Just hearing a tone of voice that sounds like the one that scolds can get a reaction from the dog that looks remarkably like shame of hanging its head and avoiding eye contact, when the dog has done nothing that it has been taught is a violation of rules.

     In these cases, there is nothing to confess, but the shame exists as a burden nevertheless.

161. Shame is a very large category. It is as simple as a neurobiological trigger that we indeed share with some animals. It’s just that primary. It can be as healthy as the recognition that I should not violate the “space” of others. It can be as toxic as the complete abolition of another’s personality and sense of well-being.

     When we actively “shame” someone else – it is largely toxic in its effect. Shame, in this sense, is “how I feel about who I am.” Guilt is “how I feel about what I’ve done.” The first can be deeply related to toxic shame. The second is related to healthy shame.

     If I say, “Don’t do that!” there can be a recognition of “guilt,” or that I have violated a boundary of some sort. It can be rectified with something as simple as an apology. No harm done.

     If I say, “What’s wrong with you? What are you thinking? How dare you do that!” This is toxic shaming. I am not just declaring a boundary to have violated, I have suggested that the other has something wrong with them and that they do not think correctly and that they have no respect for me.

     You can apologize in that setting, but you walk away feeling bad about yourself – or, more like, angry at the one who scolded you or sad and depressed and enduring the beginning of an inner voice that will keep scolding you for some time to come.

     But all of these have the same psycho/physical biology beneath them. There’s nothing wrong with the biology – only what is being done to it. Healthy growth, emotionally, spiritually, relationally, depends on a healthy relationship with healthy shame. That requires safety and a sense of security and love, and the confidence and knowledge that even if you make mistakes you are not, in yourself, a worthless piece of existence.

162. Thank you for your helpful reply, Father. In the context of the Cross, what would you advise for a person in this category of the unhealthy shame and nothing to confess? Let us face it, that is Christ on the Cross. But in terms of other human beings, what is the dynamic for healing in our context of Orthodox Christian faith?

     I appreciate your taking the time with me to answer these questions. Thank you.

163. Janine,
     Of course the injury of toxic shame is not our fault. There is nothing in it that needs forgiveness (which is why we often don’t think of speaking of these things in confession). But the injury is deep and needs healing. In psychological terms, shame can really only be healed through exposure of some sort and a slow process of working through it (there are a variety of approaches). That exposure can only happen in a setting that feels safe (and is safe). Confession can be one of those settings – though probably with a wise confessor and ample time. I have spent private one on one time with my confessor and just described things that happened to me, as well as things that I have done in this vein. But I was only able to do that after some therapeutic work in a counseling setting. Toxic shame is powerful stuff.

     What I have come to hold dear is the knowledge that Christ has united Himself to my shame – both of my own making and that which was done to me. I am not alone and I am not hated or despised. In His Cross He has taken all of our shame upon Himself without a word of condemnation.

     The exposure that comes in those safe settings has a way of allowing light to shine in darkness. My experience has largely been that the very exposure itself, in the presence of Christ, can be tremendously healing. It really requires, however, another human being (priest, therapist, etc.). That’s simply the dynamic of healing shame.

     That safe setting needs to be utterly without judgment and filled with love and acceptance. The lack of judgment as well as love and acceptance are keys to a good Confessor. We don’t need a Confessor who adds to our shame. That is worse than useless – it is harmful.

     There is much, much more to be said.

164. Thank you again Father.

     I think the idea of confession being a “safe space” in which to discuss everything that goes on with a person, not simply a kind of list of sins we have committed, is exceptionally important. If you think about it, it also goes hand in hand with the concept of theosis. Even if we harbor a shame that was imposed upon us, and is an unfair burden of suffering, it is still a responsibility that sits with us to address it and to find ways of healing it beholding the face of Christ and God’s guidance for it and how we handle it in our lives. It is part of knowing ourselves in truth and emptying before God. May I say, as well, that the All-Holy (Panaghia) comes in here too. She is the one who stood by in the midst of the shame too with love for her Son. So many simply have experienced that healing strength and compassion.

165. Father – Does John 15:18, “If the world hates you, you know that it has hated Me before it hated you,” relate to this discussion? My intuition says that is does, but I do not understand how it does.

166. David Waite, I am intruding and can’t answer for Father Stephen, but I agree with your intuition. If toxic shame can do so much harm, think about our responsibility to heal in the light of Christ. How many deal with toxic shame through projected anger or self-harm? This is not the way that Christ teaches us to live even when others hate us without a cause (John 15:25).

167. PS I have another question in the same context of this discussion:
     Do we have a saint against bullying? Any suggestions? (Maybe all of them??)

168. Janine,
     St. Matrona of Moscow has been bullied all her life…
     She is a great helper in everything, as is St. John of Shanghai and San Francisco for us in the States.

169. Thank you Agata. I will read about St. Matrona of Moscow.

170. I feel as though there should be an applicable book list. Suggestions? Even fiction?

171. Hello Father,

     My younger brother was diagnosed with NPD about a decade ago. We have at least one older family member on either side whose behavior his resembles–we both spent a great deal of time around one from a young age, and virtually none at all with the other–so the nature vs. nurture question has sort of been a perpetual one for my parents and myself. I got into the mental health field partly to try and understand myself and my family members more on some level.

     My husband also has a sociopath and a narcissist on the branches of his family tree. We have talked before about the fact that “a narcissist isn’t really full of themselves,” that the appearance of overwhelming self-love really seems to be a mask for deep insecurity and self-loathing, leading to an impulse to project outward an image of whatever that person believes that others will find valuable in order to sort of feed vicariously on tidbits of others’ acceptance or approval.

     I still find it difficult to know how to relate to my narcissistic family members. It took a long time and a lot of pain to reconcile myself to the fact that: a) there is no coercing or reasoning someone into reality; b) close, loving relationships require equal work on both parts over time to be healthy and there is no maintaining the level of closeness that I might want with that person without them dwelling in reality and being willing to compromise to some degree also; and c) that I could find peace in still loving and accepting that person without expecting anything back or being in the kind of relationship that I wanted with them. It remains a learning process and a difficult line to walk.

     With love in Christ,
     Elizabeth

172. Elizabeth,
     Thank you for your note. I hope in my article that concern for the Narcissist came out. People in those relationships endure a lot of suffering, no doubt, and it is easy to hear and sympathize with their wounds. I think it is important to see that true NPD is not a choice – it is an injury of some sort (nature/nurture/who knows) that makes a certain kind of choice impossible. It is our prayers that they need and a hope that God will heal all wounds.

     But, as you note, it is also important for those in relationship with them to understand that, in all likelihood, they will not be able to change them or make things better. Creating good, healthy, strong boundaries is necessary for sanity and well-being (and are constantly under assault if you’re in such a relationship). Sometimes those boundaries include getting out of the relationship – and a person needs to be supported in order to do that.

     I have a strong suspicion that there is a “nature” thing that makes up one component in NPD. I would suggest that it represents an “over-active” shame affect – far more sensitive than is normal – that nurtures this personality development. I discussed this with a therapist friend recently who thought this to be a likely scenario. But, I’ve not seen any such research.

173. Sophia,
     I highly recommend books by William Glasser, MD. One is “Reality Therapy” and the other “Choice Theory”, they were very helpful for me.

     And here is a link to a similar discussion on this blog from 3 years ago. It includes some great comments which may help you. May God bless and help you!

     https://blogs.ancientfaith.com/glory2godforallthings/2015/05/05/marriage-as-a-lifetime-of-suffering/#comment-85617

174. Agata,

     Thank you so much! And that blog post is a favorite and one I often come back to.

175. Fr. Stephen,

     May I email you privately? I’m dealing with a person who fits the description in this article. The last week was especially intense. I’m not doing very well, physically or emotionally.

176. Jamie,
     Sure.

177. Agata and Sophia,

     https://blogs.ancientfaith.com/glory2godforallthings/2015/05/05/marriage-as-a-lifetime-of-suffering/ is also one of favorites. I have re-read it several times. I gave a copy to my wife and have sent it to friends.

     It always reminds me of the following verse from the wonderful Paul Simon song, “You’re Kind”

     So goodbye, goodbye
     I’m gonna leave you now
     And here’s the reason why
     I like to sleep with the window open
     And you keep the window closed
     So goodbye, goodbye, goodbye

     So much for suffering.

178. David,

     Yes, very much so.

     I don’t know if your ‘re-reading’ includes the comments, there is pure gold in those also…

     Sometimes I am embarrassed to mention it, as it contains my life story (in my questions and in my comments), but it was one of the most therapeutic ‘conversations’ and a great consolation for the sufferings I was going through then. Now, 3 years later, things are so much better, and I do sleep with my windows open…. 😉

     Leaving an abusive relationship can be hard (I did not make even that decision, it was made for me after I stood up for a few ‘non-negotiables’); but there is great relief and healing now – for me the most valuable aspect was saving and restoring the relationship with my sons…. Everything else was secondary but fell into places eventually (as I tried to practice patience, acceptance and obedience to what was needed on my part).

     I pray for all women and men in such impossible marriages. But God can use our mistakes and our wrongly used freedom – and most especially our suffering – for His providential purpose, to draw us close to Himself. We just have to remain in His Church, close to Him, to experience it…

     I thank Him every day for that work in my life and pray for others to see it in theirs.

179. Beautifully stated, Agata. 🙏💗

180. Father Stephen, I’m wondering what you might make of a thought that I’ve had.

     In Fr. Meletios Weber’s book on the Twelve Steps, he describes how AA views alcoholism as a physical symptom/manifestation of a spiritual disease– namely, the problem of “terminal uniqueness;” that no one is quite as unique in their suffering as I, and therefore my behaviors are justified, even if it kills me. The point being that alcoholism is a real physical disease, but one that cannot in the end be separated from its spiritual causes.

     I wonder if narcissism, both the clinically diagnosed and the lay-person suspected, could be viewed in such terms? A real psychological dysfunction (in this case, a malfunctioning of shame and personality scaffolding) that cannot be separated from its spiritual causes. One could even word it in terms of terminal uniqueness– “I am who I am and no one could possibly understand and bear it”– which would then manifest as a tower of isolation, an ego fortified for constant war.

     In dealing with an NPD diagnosed family member, I have found AA’s literature to be exceptionally helpful. I even see parallels between the problems that families of alcoholics had prior to AA and Al-Anon and the problems that families of narcissists have. They love someone who has terrible problems, and they are trying to navigate their own health in the midst of their loved one’s challenges. Meanwhile the only response society has at its disposal is “get away from the leper!”

     AA gave us the great gift of being able to see our alcoholics as suffering people, and not just inhuman monsters, untouchable abominations. (Of course, they also helped spouses save themselves from trainwreck marriages that threatened themselves and their children.) I keep hoping that something similar happens for the suffers and families of NPD.

181. It feels like the shame you are describing is self awareness before God. Why it is shame I’m not sure. Awareness of your own fragility and littleness should not bring shame but comfort, a relief from the bonds of selfhood. I think shame is an addiction we love to feel. God said to Adam who said you are naked? We are loved.

     I agree we hurt others and should be sorry but do we need to wallow in shame. Why did He say to Cain when he was down and out “Not so!”

     Maybe if we understand our innocence we will be more understanding of others and our selves.

182. Fr. Stephen,

     After you kindly said I could email you privately, I realized I didn’t know what address to use. I sent emails to both of the addresses listed for you on your church’s website. Was that not the right way to go about it?

183. Jamie
     It was the right way. I’ve not been able to respond yet in that I was out of town at a conference this week, then driving back home. It may take me a few days to catch up on correspondence.

184. Tess – AA’s generally agree they are narcissists. That is their insanity. People who attend Al-Anon Family Group meetings learn that alcoholism (a particular form of narcissism) is a family disease. Their insanity is believing that they have caused, or that they can cure or control, their loved one’s alcoholism (narcissism). Both groups teach that only a power greater than themselves can relieve them from their insanity. For many people, those are important first steps in coming to know God.

185. David,
     Just to make a technical comment… Alcoholism is not narcissism, even if active drinking can make for narcissistic behavior in some. The codependency involved is certainly kin to the codependency involved in relationships with a narcissist. But, alcoholism is a distinctly different thing from true NPD. It is treatable in a way that NPD is not. I did not want anyone dealing with an alcoholic in the family to think that reading stuff on narcissism would be helpful – it might or might not.

     However, understanding codependency is useful in both regards. In both cases, those in relationship have to learn how to have healthy boundaries.

186. Fr Stephen,

     Fr Stephen,

     I’m so grateful to have found this post and have read all the responses by everyone on this thread. You are all such brave souls looking for deeper answers.
     Please forgive me for my lengthy post, but I may have some personal information that may be helpful to some.

     I know first hand what a narcissist is, what it feels like to be raised by one, what it’s like to date one, and the dynamics in the family as well as the distress and distortion it causes to the enabling parent.

     My father is one, and by the Grace of God I was able to escape his clutches while I had become a mere former shadow of myself over 20 years ago when I was only 18.

     Back then, there weren’t the same resources available as there are now. I didn’t have a name to describe this crippling disorder. Moreover, most of the time I thought I was the problem, that’s what you are conditioned to believe-I was after all the scapegoat. I knew something was wrong, but the wounds were so deep and invisible I didn’t know how to describe to someone the crippling abuse I had endured from my parent. To someone on the outside looking in my father would seem to be the most charming and charismatic creature, a really good father and provider.

     At 26, I checked into therapy, my father was still in and out of my life, but I had gotten away at least. I was diagnosed with severe depression and was on my way to healing, or so I thought.

     Time, and removing myself from the family environment helped a great deal.

     Throughout the years, intuitively I could pick up when someone had these traits right away, or maybe I had a sensitive radar, I don’t know exactly. In relationships and friendships when someone displayed these same characteristics, I felt ill, and I usually knew how the relationship would play out because I was so well trained in the narcissists cycle. I knew from experience that I should end such relationships, and simply love these people from afar.

     I’m sharing my story to gain your insights, and to give hope to others, that years later, Im now in my forties and Married with children, but I have attained freedom, and confidence and joy that would’ve been unimaginable 20 years ago. Glory to God for this.

     We are visiting with my parents now, and as per standard my father is giving us the silent treatment now. I know not to react, I know how this will play out. Sometimes me not reacting, creates more chaos. He will come around after he has treated everyone miserly, but never apologize, it will be blamed on me. The other day at the feast for the holy Theotokos, after we had all received holy communion,he started to rage at me in a parking lot for a perceived slight to his ego, and in the end managed to point the finger at me, that I had ruined everyone’s day, that it was such a beautiful day after receiving communion- and I, had once again managed to ruin it.

     I don’t react. I know this behavior, I’m only here on holiday, soon, Ill be gone, but my poor mother won’t. I try and speak with her later, but she also, is a brainwashed version of her former self. Mother has shut down in order to survive.

     I’m also sharing my story
     because There is a lot written about Narcissism and NDP these days. There is a lot written about how they can’t love, but not enough about how to love them.

     This is a shame because there is another side to the story and there is not much literature written about it unfortunately.

     I feel that this disorder is a handicap of ones character. And that The ‘disease’ of narcissism is mainly spiritual. NDP has existed in the psychological realm for the last century but over a thousand years ago, our spiritual fathers and saints in the orthodox faith knew well of this spiritual disease or passion. I believe that Persons suffering with this disorder, and yes they do suffer, have a burdened soul and are constantly in battle. They know that because of their character people will want to distance themselves, they know how the story will always end. There is hope for them though, I have seen it with my own eyes.

     If you have encountered such a person in your life it wasn’t by chance. If you have had to remove yourselves from their life for your own safety and sanity this is understandable. But you must always pray for them, for their soul is oppressed. Always pray for your protection and for their enlightenment.

     I wish there were more people and personal stories of narcissists recovering spiritually, because they are actually miracles.

     They say there is no cure for Narcissists, That they are a lost cause. But this couldn’t be further from the truth.

     “The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.”
     Luke 18:27
     Never lose hope.

     Thank you for listening to me, I hope this was of some help, I’m praying for all of you, please pray for me too. Peace be to you.

187. Evangelia,
     I would love to read an account of someone being healed of NPD. I think it is a severe case of shame – of experiencing shame in its most unbearable form – and therefore an inability to accept any at all. Thus, it’s a protective stance. It becomes easier to love such a person if we understand that they are held imprisoned within that inability. My thoughts on this are based in conversations with therapist friends.

188. Evangelia, may God bless you and your family. Many thanks for sharing!

189. A nun at the monastery of Souroti once gave me a metaphor that greatly helped me. She described how a crochet framed image faces upwards towards the sky, and God sees the beautiful finished image, whereas we mere mortals simply see the threads dangling.

     My take on it is that God has a plan that does not always make sense to us.

     It is difficult to wrap our heads around someone with NPD as being someone who has a handicap because they are high functioning individuals in Society, let’s say compared to someone with dementia or alzheimer’s. Furthermore their disorder can cause much turmoil and deep rooted depression to those closest to them.

     This is where it takes wisdom and discernment to realize that someone who hurts people can only be injured themselves.

     Only then can one can begin to have compassion and love for this particular neighbor and what has been truly cathartic and healing in my case.

     A book called, Humanizing the Narcissistic Style and and old forum which is still online called heal from NPD helped me to gain tremendous insight into the disorder. The forum is still online bbbboy.com and was started by someone who suffered from NPD, Tony Brown. It is quite interesting because you get to read posts from many who have an awareness of their NPD and how great the struggle is for them to deal with the defensive structure of the disorder keeping vulnerabilities, shame, and love at bay.
     Of course reading about the lives of the saints has helped immensely as well as many orthodox books about how to love ones enemy. We should also remember that Love is something that can and should sometimes be done from afar.

     I know that many narcissists have crossed the path of my life over and over again. Have I ever seen someone do a 360 change, have I seen healing Father Stephen? Well not exactly, but I have seen glimpses, I have seen cracks of light shine through an otherwise impermeable surface. These instances have usually happened when I have chosen to understand, rather than judge. When I have chosen to accept rather than tolerate. And when I have prayed to teach me how to love these people.
     (just a side note: loving does not mean living with these people, sometimes one has to remove themselves from a situation).

     So as I stand under the canvas gazing upwards to the sky at the long strands of thread dangling towards me, all along I have prayed for the healing of these people who feel no love, The Natcissists. But maybe, just maybe it’s not like that at all. Maybe my human perception of things is all wrong, maybe this was the ultimate test to see if I could love the most disfigured and vile souls of all. God sent them my way to teach me how to love.

     But I say to you that hear, love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who abuse you . . . If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. And if you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners do the same. And if you lend to those from whom you hope to receive, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, to receive as much again. But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High; for He is kind to the ungrateful and selfish (Lk 6.27–35).

190. You have been a great help to me, Evangelia. Thank you. And God bless.

191. I think living around one or several narcissists while growing up, and being the token scapegoat, directly contributes to psychological/spiritual illnesses of all sorts. Spiritually it makes one not believe in God at a young age– particularly when the narcissist(s) cherry-pick lines from the Bible to justify their actions. The children of narcissists cling to the easiest toxic relationship they can find in order to “move out and be free”, unwittingly ending up in a situation just as bad as the one they were born into.
     As for me, I felt I had to leave the situation after waiting far too long and thinking for years that it would “get better if I did or said A B or C”. I realized my young child was becoming The 2nd Scapegoat. It seems that children developing normal healthy independence sets narcissistic rage off.
     Staying around to be the target of a narcissist or borderline person is like handing drugs to an addict. They get pleasure off the pain they cause, they “need” someone to use as an emotional dumpster, and they enjoy the sense of superiority they get from putting others “in their place”, and relish in delight in maligning the scapegoat to the entire extended family. They want to be worshipped as if they were God.
     I waited too long to leave, and now I have virtually no family at all.
     Oddly, now, I feel more of a hunger to know God now that I’m “safe”.
     I’m in awe of anyone who can maintain sanity in that kind of environment, but when I’m in the middle of the crossfire of a narcissist-infected family, I become a skittish animal hiding in the corner, believing in nothing and no one, just barely surviving.

192. Dearest J,

     I can relate to so many things in your post.

     I often believed that the depression and anxiety that I’ve battled throughout my life was genetic but it’s most likely aftershocks from my toxic childhood and being raised by a a father with NPD.

     “narcissists cherry pick lines from the bible to justify their actions”

     Most definitely. Mine always drilled the line to honor and respect thy mother and father in order to project and dump the blame on me.

     “they want to be worshipped as if they were God”

     At 16 my father told me that I needed to kiss his hand and ask for his blessing. This was odd for me because I was never taught this, so when I questioned him, naturally he became offended and enraged. It was an order, a command done out of anger in order to instill domination, not done out of love and respect.

     “relish in maligning the scapegoat to the entire extended family”

     He would go off about how I was a nobody, and how he would ruin all of my dreams, say the most horrible things of how I would be dependent on him my whole life and he would be beating me into my thirties.

     Thankfully God had different plans for me. He gave me the courage to leave, not into the arms of another malignant abuser, but on my own at the tender age of 18. A therapist who treated me for my depression many years ago said that I was the only one who stood up to him, neither his mother, nor his sister, nor his wife had ever done this. We don’t do the narcissist any favors by jumping through hoops and catering to their every need, and I understand completely how very hard it is to think and see clearly in these situations.

     I wasn’t a crumby nobody like he so very well drilled into me, but I became successful, travelled the world and have a family of my own.

     I now have the luxury to know God at this time in my life, and looking back, I can see that he never left me. Reading the scriptures, prayer and partaking in holy communion, confession and holy unction have helped to heal the psychic wounds.

     I also pray for all of those afflicted with this disorder, but also have the wisdom to keep a distance. It’s the only way.

     Lord Jesus Christ have mercy on us.

193. Wow. What a beautiful article. I broke down as I read it, thinking of the rivers of love that God keeps pouring into my heart even when I deserve the deepest, darkest part of hell. As someone who has so deeply hurt others through looking at pornography and lived through that hell of shame and self hatred you described, and been rightly been labeled a narcissist, I so appreciate what you said here. It needs to be said more.
     I keep praying that God would let me feel and know in my heart the pain that I have caused others so I can have compassion and heal them. I want His compassion more fully, because if I have His, I’ll do everything to protect others and not hurt them.

     The beautiful thing is that I actually came across your article while Googling something like “God doesn’t label people narcissists.” In fact God, Who Himself is pure love, is the only Person in all of creation Who could possibly bear the full extent of the hell of shame and total, complete guilt we truly deserved. Jesus, as both fully God and fully man, absorbed every bit of it into His body on the cross and put it to death, so that we can now look into the burning eyes of His everlasting fiery love for us. He died as the last Adam, and rose again to everlasting life as the firstborn among many brothers.
     God freely gave us what we never deserved and that is true love.

     Thank you so much for writing this.

194. Thank you, Dan. May God give you grace in your struggles.

195. So what is a wife to do. I have lived with a narcissist husband for almost 30 years. Do I stay in a lonely loveless relationship and pray for him and seek God’s love. Or leave, pray for him and seek God’s love. Living with a morally evil person is hell.

196. Kris,
     I’ll keep you in my prayers. Speak with someone you trust, get support and good counsel. Don’t do this alone.

197. Thank you for your writing on this topic. It gives me a better understanding of someone I love dearly.😇

198. Kris,
     I only saw your comment today. If you are interested in talking to someone who experienced what you are describing and moved past it, please reach out to me (my gmail is “agatamcc”). As Father said, you cannot do it alone, you cannot even approach the decision alone… I had a blessing of great help from the most wonderful people in the American Orthodox Church. I can share it with you. Agata

199. Father I am struggling with this issue currently. I married a man not too long ago and intended to stay with him for life. I love him with all my heart and pray for him always that God will touch his heart and mold him into the person He wants him to be. The problem is I had to separate myself from him after his constant insults about my looks, intelligence, and he expressed a desire to slap me because of a perceived insult towards his family. I have prayed endlessly and sought advice from my pastors in church and a bishop. He refuses counseling and blames me for all the problems. Ultimately I have filed for divorce and I am truly heartbroken yet I still pray deep down for a miracle.

200. There is an incredible poverty of resources on the theology and pastoral care of narcissism. Your post is helpful to me. Keep it coming.

201. Hey I wanted to come back and post again after reading another article about “narcissism.” Hope you don’t mind me putting a link here, but I’d love to hear your feedback about what Dr. Caroline Leaf says in her article. She’s a believer and a neuroscientist. I kind of take the same view she does, as you can see in my original post in January. That was why I originally said that I just don’t think God labels people. He listens to their heart, because He created us all for love. That is always our default and original design. Sometimes we just need to be reminded of who He made us to be and remove the veil of lies. Anyway, enough with the words. 😀

     https://drleaf.com/blog/is-narcissism-a-disorder/

202. Dan,
     I appreciate the effort. I suspect Dr. Leaf has never lived in a relationship with a true narcissist. I’m glad if there is a therapeutic route that is of use to them. Primarily, over the course of 40 years of ministry, I’ve seen a train of destroyed lives in the wake of narcissistic disorders. People need boundaries, need protection, and deep healing from the toxic exposures they endure. May God grant healing to all. However, I found the linked article to be naive in the extreme and quite out of keeping with clinical material in the mainstream.

203. Thank you so much, Father Stephen. The linked article had me spiraling into self-doubt again, which is something that us victims of gaslighting struggle with, even years after the abuse is over. (Oh, of course I was wrong! I’ll go buy this book and it will finally fix what my narcissist said was wrong with me.) When you’ve had your very perception of reality challenged, over and over for years, it’s very fragile. That’s something that people who call every selfish egomaniac they meet a narcissist just don’t understand.

204. Narcissist’s wife,
     That very thing (the gaslighting) made me think about not publishing the comment and link. But I did, with my own comment and warning. Frankly, I was aghast at the ignorance of the therapist in the article.

205. Nothing that the author of that article said resonated with my own experience. I have been in relationships with more than one narcissist and none of them have ever been willing to acknowledge that they are ill and none of them have taken any steps to actually change their behavior, in spite of the long line of broken relationships they have left in their wake. I could listen to them all day and given them my loving attention, but none of that ever helped them. The only solution for me was to end all contact with these individuals. It’s a sad reality. I still love them and pray for them.

206. Dear father Stephen,

     I hope this message finds you and everyone well. I come back to this article every now and again to reread what you have written and what others have posted. Your written word on this subject has had a profound effect on me because very few have approached this matter from the heart as you have.

     Something came up awhile ago in a conversation I was having discussing the topic of NPD with a Psychiatrist who also happens to be an orthodox priest. It helps that we have all this access to scientific information and knowledge but sometimes when we try to understand things from a logical and secular perspective it still leaves us spiritually hungry.

     So in short, the conversation with the psychiatrist/priest was going along the lines of me asking the question, “do people who suffer with Npd have any control or awareness over their disorder? and is this in fact a real disorder or a character flaw?”
     His response was to assure me that yes these disorders are very real, however the way someone living with NPD may project outwardly isn’t necessarily an indication that they are in control or even aware of this themselves.

     Furthermore, he encouraged me not to look at things externally, but rather with spiritual eyes. Yes, we may see the vile behavior that is projected outwardly: callousness and lack of empathy. That person may not have an outward control over that, their awareness of their behavior may only be heightened from the feedback that they receive from others.
     The priest continued,”That is what our naked eye sees, but God looks deeper and into the heart. We cannot know what is in the heart of every person. Only God knows this, and that’s why we should never judge someone based on outward actions”

     I truly believe with all my heart that God would not abandon any of his children. Sometimes we do not understand the whys and how’s. I have faith that he knows what he’s doing and there is a reason for everything, we will all find out in the next life.

     I am grateful for posts like yours father Stephen, which continue to provide us with spiritual nourishment in a world where we are greatly lacking in such things. It is only when we speak from our hearts that we are able to touch another’s heart. Thankyou, and I will continue to try and see things with spiritual eyes. Please include me in your prayers, and forgive me if I rambled.

     Evangelia

207. Evangelia, your comments on this page have been a huge blessing to me and many others.

     My mother has an extreme case of NPD and the results have been devastating. The damage to my father, wife, and children have been beyond words. I’m now in my early 40’s and have finally learned how to set firm boundaries while also forgiving and loving her (as Christ loves me).

     We must remember that this is a spiritual battle.

     Ephesians 6:12

     For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

     Yes, we must set boundaries and often distance ourselves from the toxic abuse. Yet, we must never loose hope. We must pray that the demonic powers influencing those who suffer with NPD would be broken in the name of Jesus. I know for certain healing can occur and my wife can testify since I myself had the traits of NPD for 10 + and no longer show any indication. This occurred as a powerful work of the Holy Spirit which I am forever grateful for. What is impossible for man is not impossible for God! All things are possible for those who believe.

208. I came across this discussion of NPD while looking for answers to the same questions as so many here. I have found the comments so comforting, as it is always encouraging when you realize you are not alone, and others share the same painful experiences in life. In this way we can fulfill the command to “Bear one another’s burdens”. I guess the main question on my mind is, “After someone has what appears to be a genuine conversion to Christ, but gradually reverts back to their former NPD, but now with a fully self-righteous bent. And subsequently completely rejects their entire family for not ‘believing’ exactly as they do, and is more cruel and abusive than before; what is the true state of that person’s spiritual condition?”

209. Ruth,
     I certainly couldn’t say without personal experience of the situation.

210. Dear Ruth,
     first off
     *warm hug*

     I believe their spiritual state to be in utter turmoil and it is good discernment I believe not to give too much weight to their words or actions. I speak from experience when I say this. My father has on many occasions treated others with disdain and neglect and abuse and has apologized after a lengthy period after the fact, usually in deep sorrow, I have heard the words “my soul is being fought” come out of his mouth. He has a spiritual father in Mount Athos. Conveniently so, he hasn’t been to mount Athos for several years because he has classically «found fault” with his spiritual father. This is absurd but as we all know this is how it rolls with NPD. The sooner you realize they are not in full control over their will, the easier it will be to understand. Lots and lots of prayer. For them and for God to enlighten you.

211. This comment is very personal to my experience, but I have been seeking understanding on this topic in a Chrisitan context for a long time. This is one of the first places I’ve seen the church write about it openly. I appreciate the history and wisdom that the Orthodox church upholds. So, it was refreshing to hear a different perspective, separate from a clinical standpoint.

     I recently am recovering from the aftermath of a very toxic marriage with my husband who has exhibited every extreme behavior of an NPD. I did not understand or know about this personality disorder before my marriage. I’m in a safe and stable place separated from him now. In the course of the last two years, my husband used what he could to try and control the situation, including religion. Since our forced separation, he has converted to Orthodoxy. He’s used the church to further isolate and perpetuate the very false and very toxic reality he’s created. I’m seeking counseling and am finally in a place where I can pray for him. I struggle knowing he hides behind pretense and wrestle with whether or not to inform his priest. His priest was giving him recommendations on how to address his “unsubmissive” wife before ever having a conversation with me or even with both of us present. The orthodox community is small in this area and I haven’t known where to share my thoughts or if it’s even appropriate.

     I continue to seek healing, prayer, healthy community, and distance from my husband until he agrees to return to counseling. I’d be curious, if you’re comfortable weighing in, being a leader in the Orthodoxy faith what you would say about reaching out to my husband’s priest.

     Thank you ahead of time for opening up the conversation on this topic with your article. I also appreciate you staying connected in the comments since it’s publication.

     -Af

212. Fr. Stephen Freeman,
     Thank you for sharing words of love and hope. I have recently come to the revelation, but not medically diagnosed, that I have functioned as a narcissist for many years. I believe that Christ has saved me from an eternal torment, putting me on the path of life and the scales have been removed from my eyes. All the reading I have done does not provide much hope for a narcissist actually changing away from this mental disorder, ever.
     Your comments are are so accurate about the torment that seems never ending inside the narcissist. The delusion I now sense within is causing me to question everything I think, wants, sense, say, or do; quite literally not trusting myself since the ability to manipulate myself and others is such an ingrained insidious habit. Those habits show up daily and when I recognize how pervasive they are I begin to question the hope that I can actually be different. This is a torment in itself; but, this is so much better than the ignorance in which I abused so many people.
     I appreciate all those who commented that have experienced healing from NPD. I believe in the hope I have in Christ and that he will to continue to reveal to me my self absorbed nature, reconcile me through sanctification, and bring healing to those I have hurt.

213. Dear Lord, you have nailed this one.
     I was raised by a narcissistic father. It was, and remains hell on earth.
     Avoidance is the only way for a normal human to retain sanity. There is no reasoning with a true narcissist. It seems beyond sick, it seems demonic. I’ve never seen anything like it.

214. Sadly so true.only God can heal those damaged brains! I’ve prayed for the one I wS with for ten years now.

215. Lord, Have Mercy!

     This disorder is a severe danger for me personally. I hope the way to stay out of it is to open the door of my heart to Jesus and to others and through the Sacraments, including Confession and true repentance.

     Please pray for me, a sinner.

     Reader Columba

216. Another important personality disorder nobody has mentioned is Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD). Many people with nonpsychotic bipolar, cptsd/ptsd, and others are being currently misdiagnosed as BPD.

     Borderline personality lies on the pathological end of the narcissism spectrum, is considered more severe than NPD and shares more in common with antisocial personality disorder.

     Borderlines are more seductive, they’re usually more emotionally intense which bolsters sensuality and attractiveness. Howecer, they’re every bit as narcissistic as the rest of those within the Cluster B. Borderlines tend to be vindictive and petty. Try divorcing one. They want full custody, no compromises. Numerous studies have shown borderline personalities are common domestic violence perpetrators, including parental alienation.

217. I’m 4 months out of such a relationship with a younger woman is upon first glance is as beautiful as beauty can be.

     Over the past four months I have read everything I can find …. countless articles, books, forums, etc….

     What I know to be true now, has left me scarred … and what I have wrestled with the most lately is how utterly sad it is for this disorder to have taken her from the world … from me, from God, And from herself …. If I knew there was anyway possible to help her … to let her feel the exposure and beauty of love, I would do anything to help her …. I’ve never felt such helplessness and sadness …. for her… When I first met her I thought she was broken and needed a friend more than anything …. and now to know the brokenness cannot be fixed hurts …

     The poison of the disorder is so sad and to think she will never know or understand the truth makes it even more difficult to understand how someone with an entire life ahead of her could have been broken so badly ….

     I don’t even know what to think … I’m just sad …. I am seldom without words, and all I am filled with is a silent scream ….

     Cluster B is a horrible infliction …

218. Fr. Stephen,
     I married my husband 20 years ago. I am not a psychologist so I am in no position to diagnose him with this particular condition. But I have been reading alot about the subject. At first our relationship was overflowing in love and attention like most. But very quickly some really hurtful, mean things started happening. Like just a night and day behavior. He always made little of what was done to me claiming it was me…I was to sensitive.
     This progressed as time went on to more and more really heinous behavior. Then the one time enamored man who thought I was perfect just told me daily how stupid, worthless, and weak I was. Not that he couldn’t turn back into the charming man I once knew all of a sudden. But as soon as I was feeling good and like we were going to a good place bam the the heinous behavior would return. Eventually I got very angry and started to go down the destroy road with him, I could no longer take it. I have filed and left….but again I moved out. I started praying again, forgiving him and myself. And I reached out to do as God asks us to do and ask for his forgiveness in any part I played. And again I feel like I am on a roller coaster. He claims he needs time, and I would agree we both do. But I have always been committed to a real fix. I suggested counseling for many years he would not go. I suggested alchohal recovery programs for him I told him I would be with him and help him I was committed to our family and a real fix. Of course for years I was told I earned nothing working several jobs, that without him I was nothing. And now of course I get half of what he felt was all his. He is beyond livid. But at the same time he is in and out…and one day loves me and the next no contact. its taken a toll on me once more. I still pray for him and our family everyday. But the pain is now worse than what it was before I left. Am I married to a narcassist? Or is he just an alchoholic? I am so confused I don’t know whether or not to itch my watch or wind my rear. And help greatly appreciated.

219. Danielle Woods – I am a recovering alcoholic and the father of a recovering alcoholic and drug addict. On the basis of my many years of struggle with these problems, I would suggest that you focus on the alcohol and drug use. Addiction makes the user a narcissist, at least to some degree. Good treatment of alcohol and drug abuse problems always includes some form of therapy (often group therapy) that treats the problem with narcissism, as well as treatment for the alcohol and drug abuse.

     But here is the most important point: you cannot treat your husband. He needs support groups like AA and, in many cases, professional help to recover. And he must get this help on his own. I would have gone to AA sooner than I did, but for people telling me to go. My alcoholism made me such a narcissist that I rejected any and all offers of help and advice. I did not seek help until I finally hit bottom and sought it on my own. That is the way it is with alcoholics.

     What you can do – and I hope and pray that you will! – is get help for yourself. Find an Al-Anon group near you (I am sure there is one!) and attend at least three meetings. There you will find people facing the same problems you are facing. They will not criticize you. They will welcome you and listen to your story. They will also share their own stories. By sharing experience, strength and hope, we can begin to find some serenity in the midst of the hells we live in.

     I do not think our marriage would have survived our son’s alcoholism and drug addiction if my wife and I had not sought help from Al-Anon.

     There is hope for you, Danielle.

     You will be in my prayers. I will pray especially that you find the help you need. Google Al Anon. Help is just one phone call away.

220. I have an ex that is a narcissist. We are not together and have a child. It has been a nightmare dealing with him. He treats me terribly and refuses to give back my daughter’s clothes and shoes when I pick her up. He wants control. This is just the tip of the ice berg. How can I work on not hating him so much? Praying doe this person is hard for me. How do I get closer to God ti stop hating him so much?

221. Regina from my own experience I know how hard it is to stop hating someone who intentionally and repeatedly attempts to harm or hurt or infuriate you.

     One thing I kept in mind at the time was that holding hatred in my heart was self destructive and perpetuated the harm the other person intended. I knew I wanted to stop participating within that vortex of hatred, to become less susceptible to their influence. To break free of them was to ‘keep my peace’ in the circumstances in which they would intend to take that from me.

     I also highly recommend counseling. Attempting to separate the person from the mud of their actions is a hard thing to do.

     Remember God loves you always. Gently return your thoughts to Christ when you begin to slip into thinking of the bad behavior of this person. Separation is key. But that includes separation from the passions. Love is not ‘like’. Love is hard. But it is possible to love a person and have compassion for a person whom you do not like.

     For me it took a while, years actually, to be able to say this. Nevertheless the wounds remain. These too have helped me to thank God for all things.

     May God bless you with His peace.

222. I actually asked God to give me his heart for my first husband after he told me he was having an affair, had never loved me (though he told me for 37 years he did) and wanted out of our marriage. I awoke at 2:00 a.;m.with my heart exploding out of my chest with compassionate love, and went into the other bedroom and told my then husband how very deeply I did love him and wanted to work on reconciliation. Well, he does have NPD, which I didn’t even hear of until two years later, so all I said fell on deaf ears. But god has blessed me tremendously even though I faced five years and three attempts by my ex to “annul:” our marriage through the Catholic Church, though neither of us was Catholic (the woman he married evidently only nominally is). His first two tries failed, and he pushed it up to the ArchDiocese of Santa Fe, but then withdrew after months. Ironically, now my Advocate in the Diocese of Phoenix and another woman who worked in the Tribunal office are good friends of mine. I prayed for the unborn grandson of the Tribunal worker, after she told me an ultrasound revealed large dark spots on the baby’s brain and amniocentesis revealed he would have Dandy Walker Syndrome. I prayed for the baby and her daughter, and the boy was born with only slight learning disabilities and is now a healthy seven-year-old! Praise Jesus! Jesus brought a miracle out of what Satan intended for evil! I still pray for deliverance, cleansing, healing and awakening for my ex, because I don’t want to see the enemy of his soul win this; I long to see Jesus VICTORIOUS in that man yet. Four years ago God brought me together with a truly God-fearing, Jesus-loving, servant-hearted man, and we’re so grateful God connected us by His hand. We share faith and values in common. Thanks be to God Almighty for His marvelous mercies to me!

223. We need some healed Narcs. My ex for 10 years was a Narc; I hated her now I pity her so much…she kind of warned me in her Narcy way right from the start that she would destroy my life; she did but now I’m trying to forgive and I pray for her healing.

224. I would see these emails come every week or so and didn’t quite understand or remembered I, apparently, signed up for it. Lol. Today, I opened and really read through some of the posts. It brought tears and joy to me. Tears because, I have been still dealing with the fact that my husband and I are no longer together and the trauma I not only endured from him, but his family. They all seem to be kinda sick. I don’t say this in a mean or terrible way. I say this with great sadness. I did not understand what I was in, but the Lord came to my rescue and let me know what I was dealing with. I never encountered anybody like this in my life and the relationship caused me a lot of pain, stress and heartbreak. Had I not had a military mind and the mind of Christ, I believe I would have been a mental case behind this evil.
     I don’t understand why I still have love for him. I was traumatized by him and his family. Our divorce is almost final. I am still grieving a little. I can’t believe what I have just been through. I am forever grateful, God has brought me out. I am prayerful for everyone.

225. Thank you so much for your beautiful thoughts on the narcissist. I have come to the same conclusion, that prayer is the only way we can help a person afflicted with this condition. I envision Jesus journeying down into this person’s heart and suturing up the break with His light.

226. Thanks so much for this article, Father Freeman, and for the comments.
     I agree we need some healed Narcs. I found this article originally using terms I don’t remember in an internet search related to narcissism and NPD. I don’t have NPD, exactly, but I do have some disturbances similar to it and have been in and out of therapy for more than 50 years, with no good results. At least as far as the narcissism goes. Perhaps if and when some of us get “better” then we can pass along some pointers to others. For now, I continue my stumbling in the dark.
     I was really struck by the quotation from Isaiah. It captures, or points to, something very important I think.
     Again, many thanks for the article.

227. Asking for prayer for a loved one “Rebecca”. I find myself looking for answers when I’m losing faith. Though it only takes one word to change everything. Thank you for the reminder to keep praying no matter what. Praying for someone with this sickness or even spirit is tiresome. It’s as if Jesus keeps sending those with this spirit in my direction and I don’t know why? Could it be my willingness to pray?

228. Jason,
     You have my prayers. I’ve had a a similar situation that repeated with different people. It may be for evoking your prayers as we should always pray for one another. In my situation the person became an interloper following me to another parish and to my workplace and office. I’ve been praying for them for several years.

     This has also evoked reflection in my own heart to ask myself what passions do I relentlessly pursue?

     May God Grant you His grace and strength.

     And if it is His will, relief.

229. And you might consider discussing these circumstances with your parish priest for solace for your heart.

     Blessings dear brother.

230. Thank you Father Freeman. I am in the midst of a discard from a man who suffers at the hands of this incredibly overwhelming shame and in other circles would be known as a malignant narcissist, rare, I know, but I am more sure of this than most things, especially now, while I simultaneously recover from the abuse and continue to endure it to a much lesser degree. The description you gave above about trying to convince the person of a factual occurrence is a daily, sometimes hourly occurrence with this one. Incredibly, and I will acknowledge my time with him has been short, about 5 months, this time of my life (the past week or so) has revealed to me incredible moments of clarity and peace of which I’ve never felt before, even in the most love-filled, beautiful moments. I believe this article has led me to why. I’ve been saying to my sister for a while that this time felt so existential and I couldn’t pinpoint why, other than I know evil now, something I was firm I didn’t believe in before, as I wanted to believe that there was the capacity for love and light in every being. But this article made me realize evil is the absence of love and light, which makes sense to me and still fits with my original naive view. I hope I’m being completely honest when I say that i am trying to see and imagine his pain, and that is where this incredible sadness comes in. Because the opposite of those moments are the peaceful ones I mentioned above that derive from my knowledge of love. Gods love is our love. And it is absent of ego, of pettiness and worldly comforts, absent of malice and hate. And I have that, but he doesn’t, and that both crushes me and simultaneously reinforces how blessed I am. That a being must endure that kind of internal pain such that it must explode out of them in ways that can create evil where there was none before is incredibly humbling and terrifying. Thank you again for this beautifully written piece. I continue to try and instill in this person the power of love and I know I am risking my life to do so, and I hope I can get away soon as I know that it will not be me that can wrestle a power that strong.

231. Fr. , with regards to a toxic narcassist, that cannot be saved. If they take their own life according to the church they will not life they will not be saved.
     What is the point of living?

232. AN,
     I do not say that a narcissist cannot be saved, in the sense of “salvation.” Indeed, I would assume that a narcissistic personality disorder is not exactly someone’s fault – it is more like a handicap. However it is very difficult to treat.

     Salvation belongs to God. I trust in His goodness. In Him, all things are possible.

233. Hello, Father Stephen. I write from the point of view of someone who loves (loved?) one of these people deeply and made a life with him. I did not know about narcissism back then and was constantly confused by what I saw, what I was experiencing. I would like to share some thoughts with you in the hope that you will help others.
     I was aware of the great darkness my husband had inside but I also believed he had great potential. And I believed God loved him because God loves all his children (I still believe that). I experienced the boundary-less nature of my beloved, how important it was to him that I give him all my time, my energy, and believe what he believed. I gave him everything I could because it was so important to him. It was actually not hard for me, and I believe for many Christians, to love the hard to love because our love flows from the Source and there is so much of it because the Source is boundless. So I continued to love even though I was the target of really terrible things, “trespasses” as you call them, both small and great. And they came in such great amounts that I was always off balance, always struggling to prove my “worthiness,” my love.
     Narcissists learn from a young age to protect their ego from shame by batting away all shame. They want power and control, admiration, affection, adoration. These things are food for them. They need it like the rest of us need air. While we might like those things, we don’t exactly need them because we depend on the knowledge that God has affection for us (He loves us), and we feel moved to adore Him. So adoration, for us, is outward looking: we are in constant communication with God. He loves us, we adore Him. He gives us everything we have, including health, we try to give back by serving Him.
     There is another thing that narcissist need, another kind of “food”: putting others down. Not everyone, just certain targets. Normal people don’t need or want to do this at all. Perhaps you have never been the target of that. I have, and I couldn’t understand it, therefore I didn’t exactly see it. Hurting others, putting them down, elevates narcissists somehow in their minds. A true Christian doesn’t mind taking the lower position. Jesus washed others’ feet, after all. I couldn’t understand why my husband wanted, needed to do this to me, but I accepted it. It wasn’t completely because I was self-less; it was just easier that way. Trying to do anything different and an avalanche of punishment was unleashed.
     What I didn’t realize was that God did not want the life for me that I had accepted. He did not want me to serve this dark soul. He wanted me to serve Him. So at some point He took me completely, definitively out of that life. On my own, I never would have left. I would have continued to keep trying, partly because it was all I knew after twenty years of marriage.
     My being set free was quite unusual. I believe that there are many, many people who struggle in marriages with dark individuals. They get broken down in them. Narcissists are 3% of the population and they like to get married, also they target the most well-meaning, trusting among us. I am writing this because I believe some will come to you looking for help and guidance.
     There were some things I could not give my husband. When he became an atheist, for example, I could not go there with him, and that made him angry. Of all the many things made him angry, that was one of the worst: that I could believe and he could not. I thought that my example could help him find the Way. No. It could not. It doesn’t work that way with narcissists.
     What I believe now is that God does not want us to make lives with those who have chosen this path of refusing all shame/pinning their shame on others (projection so they don’t have to feel it). Yes, they have great potential. But they will never achieve their potential because they are focused not on developing themselves, but on dominating others and twisting the truth into some alternate reality that suits them. God wants us to motor around these people. They trounce all of our boundaries; we are the ones who need to put boundaries up against them. High walls, entire Force Fields of boundaries. Shields up.
     Narcissists can be as sweet as candy when they have to be. And to most people, they look fine because they wear social masks. We need to hold them to the standard of being Decent. It starts with those small transgressions that you mentioned but it goes much, much further than that. As Christians, we want to forgive and forget. Every day, every hour is a new slate and who are we to judge? But this letting them go, letting things slide, only allows narcissists to get people to marry them, have children with them, not divorce them, gets people to sign contracts with them, lend them money, work for them, on and on. We need to hold narcissists ACCOUNTABLE because they are the liars and the cheaters of the world. And when a person tries to divorce one, they often go berserk in the court system.
     I now write about my experiences and I am read by 10,000 people a day. You can read my writing, Father, I write under my own name (Sonya Johnson) on a platform called “Quora”. I write about all kinds of things, not only narcissism. Some of my pieces are silly, gently humorous, most of them are serious. And it is all for the glory of Him. So many things came together to allow me to do this: financial independence (from my parents, not my ex), the ability to write, and the desire to do so. What a wondrous, wondrous God we have. I don’t know how long I will write, Father. It will be until the Lord shows me He has something else for me to do. And sadly, I do not miss my ex-husband. Or perhaps it’s not sad at all: perhaps that is another gift our Father has given me.
     Feed His sheep, Father. Show them the way. Help protect His sheep.
     Respectfully Yours, Sonya

234. Dearest Sonya,
     You described the exact story of my life. You are my twin sister in this. May God grant you strenght and wisdom to recover and live a new life. It is beautiful with God.
     Agata

235. Thank you thank you for sharing this. The answer I’ve been praying for so I can LIVE FOR THE-GLORY OF GOD!
     Just out of painful narcissistic relationship. Not proud of my anger/some actions. Neither was God.
     The answer is to pray earnestly for him. Have compassion by putting myself in his shoes. Yet no contact and protect myself.

     Blessings