A Full Life

What constitutes a full life? In a consumer culture, I would suppose a full life to be one of maximum consumption, enjoyment, and productivity. We like being happy. Would a full life include suffering? The answer to such questions, for Christians, are found in Christ Himself. Christ alone fulfills what it means to be truly human. So, what does that mean?

Christ does not flee from suffering. We are shown a number of occasions where He works well past the point of exhaustion in serving others. He does not turn away from the enjoyment of his friends. He was called a “drunkard and a wine-bibber” by his detractors. He fasted but understood that, for a time, His disciples could not fast. His life includes the story of His suffering and shameful death, which He bore for our sakes. It also includes the revelation of His unending love for His disciples made known in His resurrection. For Christians, the fullness of human existence can be no different.

There are no lives that meet the standards of modernity. Those lives that are marked by maximum consumption, enjoyment, and productivity are never free from suffering (though wealth can forestall many things). A profound absence within modernity is the ability to account for suffering as anything other than failure and misfortune. Many contemporary Christians, enamored of a false interpretation of the fall, agree with this absence. This creates a modern Christianity willing to join in the project of eliminating suffering, regardless of the moral cost. However, there can be no authentic Christian voice that does not also ask for suffering on the part of its adherents.

The equation of suffering with evil distorts the meaning of love. True love, in the image of Christ, involves suffering. It is self-emptying, voluntarily denying the demands of self in the interests of the other. This form of suffering is placed in the midst of Paradise itself.

In the Genesis account, the man and woman exist in the Garden. It is an abiding image of an unfallen world prior to sin. There is neither punishment nor death in that place. But at the very heart of the Garden is a Tree that says, “No!” This Tree alone makes possible the self-denial that is synonymous with love. Everything else within the Garden brings enjoyment and satisfaction. As such, the Garden could be the breeding ground of pure self-interest – a colony of hell. Only the Tree whose fruit cannot be eaten makes the Garden into Paradise.

That Tree also represents every other person and thing in our lives. We are not placed into the world to consume one another. There are elements within every person and within every object that are forbidden to us. There are boundaries that must be regarded and respected. Without such boundaries, we would become all-consuming demons, devouring one another and everything around us. We would be transformed into narcissists of infinite proportions.

This is not to say that suffering itself is inherently good. There are terrible and tragic things within our world –  wounding, death-dealing enemies of the soul. But terrible and tragic things are many times willingly borne in what can only be described as a sanctifying manner.

Our theological grammar does not permit us to introduce the notion of the passions into the Godhead. But the revelation of God as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit carries this very self-emptying-existing-towards-the-other. The Father delights in the Son; the Son only does those things that He sees the Father doing; the Spirit does not speak of the things concerning Himself; and so on. Everything about the Son is referred to the Father, and everything we would know of the Father is referred to the Son. Though such things are not normally associated with suffering, they have within them the same character as the suffering that is borne voluntarily.

It is possible to think of the Crucifixion as something required by human sin, and thus not somehow inevitable in and of itself. It could be said that had we not fallen, Christ would not have been Crucified. I think this is misleading. Nothing in God is changed in the Crucifixion. The Crucifixion reveals the truth of God. We might imagine that the mode of what is revealed in the Crucifixion is changed by human sin, but we cannot say that it changes the character of what is revealed.

Jesus healed the sick, cleansed the lepers, and gave sight to the blind. Such actions are incorrectly described as the “relief of suffering.” In many other cases Jesus specifically asks people to suffer: give away your possessions; forgive your enemies; take up your Cross; turn the other cheek; give without expecting in return. Again, there is no authentic Christian voice that does not demand suffering on the part of its adherents.

More important than this, is the fact that this voluntary self-denial, a willingly embraced suffering for the sake of others, is not a diminishment of our humanity, but a necessity of its fulfillment. It is this reality that modernity, in its truncated account of existence, fails to understand or to describe. The most popular ethic within the modern world entails the relief of suffering. In the name of that ethic, people are put to death. It cannot ask us to suffer without guilt. But if suffering is inherent to our existence, then only that which encompasses suffering is sufficient as an account of being human.

To be truly human is to be conformed to the image of Christ. And not just to the image of Christ, but Christ crucified. Anything less would make a mockery of our existence and a diminishment of the fullness to which we are called.

 

About Fr. Stephen Freeman

Fr. Stephen is a priest of the Orthodox Church in America, Pastor Emeritus of St. Anne Orthodox Church in Oak Ridge, Tennessee. He is also author of Everywhere Present and the Glory to God podcast series.



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252 responses to “A Full Life”

  1. Dee of St Hermans Avatar
    Dee of St Hermans

    Agata,
    My own confessor has prescribed prostrations when I needed them. I appreciate your suggestion and would welcome it if you had directed your comment to me.

    If by your suggestion, however, you have a thought it might ‘fix’ someone who is already carrying a heavy cross, I would like to suggest instead that such a person is already undergoing sufficient ‘suffering’ and bearing that cross is a holy and blessed act in its own right. In such a case it seems to me better to let his confessor make such suggestions when and if they are needed.

  2. Paula Avatar
    Paula

    Dee, Simon, and Agata,
    “…bearing that cross is a holy and blessed act in its own right.”
    Which is exactly what I see Simon of Cyrene doing. That you took his name, Simon, speaks volumes.
    Stay tight, Simon…I believe, as utterly real as you are (as much as I see here), you are so on the right track. God bless you again and again.

  3. Dino Avatar
    Dino

    Agata, Simon,

    I wasn’t going to reply but since you said you’re looking forward to it (regarding- loving God), the most practical advise I’ve had is simply ‘you start with joy’, …look after your joy, cultivate it, put as much fuel into that fire as you can (and minimise as much of that “heat’s” dispersion as you can) and then God will grant you greater love. It is in such a spirit of joyous offering that we then use all other trusted weapons of the spiritual struggle to help us become ‘Eucharistic beings’ that truly return ‘Thine own of Thine own’ to our Lord with a greater singular focus, less dissipation elsewhere, gradually engrossing more and more of our entire being and transforming us humbly; (these are such things as confessions, eucharist, prostrations, Jesus prayer, studying books, scriptures, fasts, vigils, cutting-off our will to help/accept others for the sake of the Lord etc).
    But virtue occurs through three things (and not two): not just through Grace and human effort, …but the element of time is required as well..

  4. Paula Avatar
    Paula

    Mark Basil,
    Thank you so very much for posting that link. It is a superb article. I think it touched on almost every thing we’ve been talking about in this post. Including the reaction of the Greeks when someone “spills their guts”. A very helpful piece. A “keeper”. Thanks again.

  5. Agata Avatar
    Agata

    Thank you Dino.
    And just in case Father Stephen decides that we have all said enough for now, I want to squeeze in my heartfelt thank you to all (Dino and Simon especially) for this blessed time of learning and re-learning… May God grant you all His timeless and boundless Joy… If we know anything about Him, I think, it is that He appreciates our effort and our sincerity in pursuing Him. May He make up the rest in us indeed!

    God has gone up with a shout!
    With much love,
    Agata

  6. Simon Avatar
    Simon

    I appreciate the kind support from everyone here. Thank you Paula for affirming my genuineness. That actually means very much to me.

  7. Byron Avatar
    Byron

    Man is not perfectable by man, but he is redeemable by God.

    Making the t-shirt now. 😉

  8. Simon Avatar
    Simon

    Dee, Paula, Agata, Karen…thank you. I really appreciate your contributions and the kind remarks. They have been a source of encouragement. Thank you.

  9. Adam Avatar
    Adam

    David/Simon,

    Thank you for your contributions to this blog. You react and struggle in ways that I don’t allow myself to but probably should.

    “I am also convinced at this stage in my life that the only love I’m going to have to give to God is the love He gives me to give back to Him. ”

    I believe this is all any of us can ever do. “Thine own of Thine own…”

  10. Mark M. Avatar
    Mark M.

    Hello Paula,
    I’m afraid you may have mistaken me – I’m just Mark (after the Evangelist) – though Basil is my godfather…

    But since I *think* you identified as belonging to Holy Resurrection in Tucson, I wanted to thank you and all your parish for your kindness to me and my family when we have visited! My mom’s down there (not Orthodox…at the present time), and we’ve been thankful to worship with you all. Perhaps next time I can find you in person!

    In Christ,
    Mark
    (St John, Tempe)

  11. Paula Avatar
    Paula

    Oh Mark!! This is really interesting….I noticed my mistake right away, but for no reason in particular, didn’t correct myself and offer my apologies to you. Now to find out Basil is your godfather …and….you visited our Church!! Oh my! I am so glad you had a nice visit! Please Mark, if you do visit again, ask one of the clergy to point me out. It would be a pleasure to meet you!
    And, I do apologize for calling you the “wrong” name. Worked out well, though!
    BTW, I have been reading articles from Road to Emmaus Journal ever since I read the article you linked! It is a wonderful site. Thank you a third time!

  12. Agata Avatar
    Agata

    Mark,
    As I am reading this “Road to Emmaus” interview you shared further and further (I think I am only 1/2 through it), my heart is sinking lower and lower… Thank God we had this discussion and Dino’s reminder at the end to cultivate Joy – for now, just remembering joy is a struggle… (for many very personal reasons). St. Silouan comes to my mind, “keep your mind in hell and despair not”… This article is certainly taking me into hell at the moment…
    (sorry Father, I promised to stop commenting, but like you said to me earlier, “There are layers in these conversations – our own emotions, needs, shame, ideas, etc. – and in the awkward world of typed conversations! The truth is, that in our modern world, we are such strangers, often lonely, within our own communities.” – where to look for help us de-tangle and make sense of some of these things [my fears are for my children, not so much for myself]…?)

  13. Fr. Stephen Freeman Avatar

    The Road to Emmaus interview has been an important read for me when it first came out. Dr. Patitsas is a friend and an important thinker.

  14. Mark M. Avatar
    Mark M.

    Agata,
    My counseling professor at (protestant) seminary drew the class’ attention to the story of Naaman the Syrian (in 2 Kings 5), who had leprosy. The retelling of the story is often focused on Gehazi’s greed & punishment, but at the very beginning of the story, Naaman is made aware of the prophet and the possibility of a cure by a little captive Israelite girl who is a slave of his wife.

    My prof asked us – why is this little girl seeking to help cure the general of the army that murdered her family? No doubt she was dreadfully traumatized at being “carried off in a raid”. And, without psychologizing, I think that the girl had glimpsed what Christ requires of us – love your enemies, pray for those who persecute you, do good to those who spitefully use you. Easier said than done, but worth saying if it helps us do it.

    I think much about my five children, and how to give them good gifts. But I want to be wary – just as the early church refused to predicate Pascha on Jewish calculations (hence the really confusing and elaborate Paschalion), I don’t want to simply be reacting to the world as I see it right now. I can’t raise children in the negative. I have to think of it as fitting them out for the kingdom of God. That never changes. I think Pattitsas’ assertion that video games condition the soul in a manner that favors casual killing is quite correct (p38 of the article). But it’s easy to pick particular targets for negatives, and much harder (but more worthwhile) to seek to train up and inculcate in our children a genuine love for the good – in fact, it’s beyond us to secure it, but the effort is required. And the first place this starts is our own hearts. And that’s so damning. If you have it handy, re-read Lewis’ “The Abolition of Man” – I did yesterday afternoon, and it was quite worthwhile. We are irrigating deserts. And my own heart is the first desert that needs water.

    A final note, for Simon – the father who said to God “If you can do anything…” and cried “I believe, help my unbelief!” yet went home with a cured son. He doubted and screamed at God Himself, and he was heard.

    God keep us all,
    Mark

  15. Agata Avatar
    Agata

    Mark,
    Thank you, you picked up on the exact fear that is gripping me at the moment. My three teenage sons play these shooting video games all the time (well, now mostly the youngest one, for the older ones I fear about what is written in the last paragraph at the top of page 44). And of course you are right, that I am only focusing on the negative in this article…
    And that I should trust that I have inoculated them *enough* with the love of the good and command them to the Lord for the rest of their independent lives… I certainly pray for that, for them and for myself… But what if it may be a little too little too late… ?
    Thank you for the suggestion to re-read The Abolition of Man. Fr. Tom Hopko had great talks on this book.

    And finally, you have no idea how much meaning there is for me in your words to Simon… Two of my sons have juvenile myoclonic epilepsy, with onset at the time our family disintegrated (us, the parents, divorced)… I have no doubt my children suffer because of my sins (again, for anybody who is tempted to read these words as some generalization and condemnation of others, please don’t, this is rather a very specific confession about my life and my sinfulness).
    And finally, “I believe, help my unbelief” is the only prayer I remember my Grandfather praying when I was little… 🙂

  16. Panayiota Avatar
    Panayiota

    Dino,
    Thank you for the comment you wrote on May 16, at 4:39.
    I wish I had seen it last night while I laid awake, heavy feeling, alone in doubt and sin. Your comment gave me hope. Lord have mercy on me, a sinner.
    As Dean said, “read it until it is mine in mind and heart”.

  17. Mark M. Avatar
    Mark M.

    Agata,

    God keep you and your sons! I count leaving behind violent video games as an integral step on my journey into the Church. I have heard a similar comment from my Protestant brother-in-law. But it has to be dropped because of something better – the kingdom of God. It can’t just be taken away (a tactic I saw often attempted on my Baptist friends, always with disastrous results). And one of my fellow parishoners wryly commented that the verse says “train up a child in the way, and when they are old they will not depart from it” – no promises about the middle years!

    King David prayed “remember not the sins of my youth”. We get to keep loving as best we can.

    In Christ,
    Mark

  18. Fr. Stephen Freeman Avatar

    Mark M.,
    Tragically, the verse regarding training up a child is both blessing and a curse. For the “way” in which they are trained stays with them. For those who have been trained in the way of the world, their lives will be marked by it – and if they seek to enter the Kingdom of God, it will be occasioned by great struggles.

    But this is our task.

    Stanley Hauerwas whom I studied with at Duke, always said that since God has already determined the outcome of history in the Pascha of Christ, Christians have nothing better to do in this world than to have children and to teach them about Jesus.

    Sweet.

  19. Agata Avatar
    Agata

    Mark and Father,
    Thank you both. “Christians have nothing better to do in this world than to have children and to teach them about Jesus”… I love that. Although I am still learning to love Him myself, so I probably did not teach them that (for sure not well).
    “We get to keep loving them as best we can“… These are wonderful words of advice for a very specific family situation/problem we are in at the moment… Thank you!

  20. Dino Avatar
    Dino

    Panayiota
    I am surprised you dug that far back! I can’t say that any of this is mine (I would hope it isnt actually). If you’re a Greek speaker you could read everything published from elder Aimilianos from whom you can gradually discover eternal truths of the spiritual life explicated in a sublimely pedagogically-discerning way and presented “to our times” as you cannot really find elsewhere.

  21. Agata Avatar
    Agata

    Yes Panayiota,
    How I wish I could read Greek!!! 🙂
    For Elder Aimilianos specifically…

  22. David Waite Avatar
    David Waite

    Dino – I copied and pasted your comment from May 16, at 4:39 onto my Facebook page. Nothing but negative feedback, which further convinces me of it’s prophetic veracity. Thank you for sharing it with us.

  23. Simon Avatar
    Simon

    With all due respect to Dino, I’m pretty much in total disagreement with that entire comment. Any “god” who needs or purposes our suffering is god at all. Im genuinely sorry but it seems patently ridiculous.

  24. Fr. Stephen Freeman Avatar

    Simon,
    Continuing the due respect, I don’t think the quote says that God needs or purposes our suffering. Instead, it’s an observation about us and how easily we dismiss the easy, the free, the kind, the merciful, etc. I think God would (and has) given us everything easily and freely – but is so patient with us, that He doesn’t take it away even when we’re making it hard for ourselves.

  25. Simon Avatar
    Simon

    Fr.
    Dino said:

    Unfortunately, if God were to yield to us before we sought Him with unbearably desperate hope, if He became our possession without any suffering on our behalf (suffering making us frenziedly seek Him only), if His paradisial presence could be ours while we are still full of our contented self, if we encountered Him before crying from the depths of our beings, if His permanence became undeviating in us prior to us profoundly realising the futility of everything other than Him(through suffering), then, alas, we would cast Him off just as easily as we’d secured Him – we would not know His true value.

    We have been through this before I dont see any good to be had by returning to it. But, I think that the idea of need and purpose is implicit. Somehow we have come to be in a situation where the human will and ego is so weak OR so currupt OR so (fill-in-the-blank-here) that only when we realize the absolute futility of EVERYTHING and turn to God in unbearably desperate hope can we truly receive him.

    I give myself to my son without any expectation as to what he will give me in return, I do it because I love him, and I would do anything for him. AND I am enduring hardships I would absolutely refuse to endure for anyone else.

    Why cant God just help??? Why is that so impermissible???

  26. Fr. Stephen Freeman Avatar

    I think He does help, far beyond what we imagine. Nothing in the quote excluded that. That we even try at all is a gift. No matter how it might feel, you’re not doing this by yourself.

  27. Michael Bauman Avatar
    Michael Bauman

    Simon, there is a certain hyperbole in such statements as Dino’s and yet they reflect a real and certain truth. When I was in college I reached a state of felt desperation of that magnitude although in reality it was transient and minor. Nothing that anyone would call suffering. Nonetheless I cried out for God with no hope in anyone else, least of all myself, and He came. He changed the course of my life yet very little changed outwardly. All of the existential factors that caused desperation in me were the same. He did not help one bit it seems.

    Looking back from a longer perspective it eventually became obvious to me that everything in my life had been given to me in perfect and exquisite detail to prepare me for the possibility of that moment. If I had not taken advantage of that particular moment 50 years ago, He would still have been making preparation and waiting for other possible moments such as that.

    The outcome of such ever present moments are seldom in accord with what we want and therefore seldom look like help but that is just because we tend to be selfish and obtuse–another reason for the hyperbolic language to begin with.

    One of my wife’s relatives is dying of cancer. It has been a protracted battle that she is close to loosing. Today I was praying for her somewhat prefuctorily since I do not really know her or have a personal attachment to her. As I prayed I looked at the icon of Matushka Olga on my wall and was overcome by deep anguish and a deeper cry to God that was not mine. Moving me even now. So much love.

    Will Matushka’s intercession “help” — not to be expected in terms of a recovery but my oh yes in so many other ways.

    God is with us.

  28. Byron Avatar
    Byron

    I think one of the hardest things to “see” is the revealing of God in all of Creation. When I became Orthodox, I was told it takes something like 10 years to “acquire an Orthodox mindset”. I believe this reflects the ability to see God in all things in life–both the things with which we struggle and the world in which we live and move.

    One of the things that I, as a protestant, looked for was God’s “hand” moving something in (my) life. The image of God “smiting” or “creating” an opportunity or “opening a door” was deeply drilled into my consciousness and colored my expectations of how God worked. There was victory to be had; where was the earthquake? the flood? the grandiose gesture of righteousness that showed God at work? Even in my small life, where was His help, the victory?

    Orthodoxy turns this thinking on its head. The victory is the victory of the Cross. It is self emptying, humble, and love well beyond my ability. I still cringe with anger when I see the hate of God rife in the world. My immediate response is to cry for the power to bring them down; to prove them wrong. Humility is beyond me. But now, at least, I pray to not be a stumbling block to them. I pray for silence in my own heart and mind so I will not hate them. May God give Grace to empty ourselves and be filled with Him! In this way, I see Him in all of Creation and I know the small victories of the evil one in this world are just that–small.

  29. Agata Avatar
    Agata

    Simon,
    Michael already said to you what I hoped to say, only much better. And Father pointed out that even when God helps, we don’t always notice it. I would add that even if we notice, we forget sooner than we should. There are stories of Saints who made marks on their cell wall every time God visited them, because otherwise they did not trust themselves to remember receiving Grace. That is our instability “this side of eternity” (it’s Dino’s expression, so I have to give him credit :-))

    Try to take things a little less literally, you will open yourself to great wonders…

    I want to offer us all these words from today’s Vespers of Pentecost that *to me* feel so beautifully applicable:

    The coming of the Holy Spirt,
    filled Thine Apostles, O Lord,
    and made them speak in foreign tongues.
    To the faithless this wonder was but drunkenness,
    but to the faithful it brings salvation.
    We pray to Thee, O good God Who lovest mankind:
    “Make us worthy of such enlightenment”

    May God grant you prefect Faith, Simon! 🙂
    (and all of us also…)

  30. Dee of St Hermans Avatar
    Dee of St Hermans

    Simon,
    I’m grateful for the love you have for your son and for your willingness to share your thoughts about God, and your cries to God. You’re walking the walk of fire and have the courage to walk into darkness for your son. These words, your words, comfort me.

    At this time, I too, am about to walk into fire. To see that you can do this and to witness that your heart remains in a place of love, gives me hope. I’m very grateful. Through witnessing your strength, God has strengthened me. May God grant you peace that your words have given me.

  31. Fr. Stephen Freeman Avatar

    I do not know why things are as difficult for some as they are – the measure of their suffering rivals that of the martyrs, or exceeds it. I do not think that our suffering is caused by God, nor required by God. I believe that God suffers in us and with us and continues to move us towards the goal of union with Him. This mystery is easily the deepest that we ever face – and the easiest to mis-speak, even with the best of intentions. It is also very easy for us to hear something other than is being said or intended.

    If I thought anyone were suggesting that God requires or needs us to suffer – it would get a swift correction. Because it is not so.

  32. Simon Avatar
    Simon

    More specifically Dino said, If He [God] became our possession without any suffering on our behalf (suffering making us frenziedly seek Him only), …then we would cast Him off just as easily as we’d secured Him – we would not know His true value.”

    What bother or rubs me is the if-then construction. This is an antecedent followed by a consequent. This statement says suffering is necessary to know His true value. That without suffering we would cast him off just as easily as we had accepted–easy come, easy go. Given what I have read about how the monks and ascetics abandoned the world, their families, despising everything. Pray constantly? Fine. The monks pray every minute of the day including during the three hours they sleep. So in a culture where such extreme asceticism is so deeply regarded and revered, why is it so hard for people to believe that Dino, in his piety and ‘love of martyrdom’, might actually mean what he says? I don’t inderstand why that’s such a stretch.

  33. Dean Avatar
    Dean

    Simon,
    As Father said, we do not know why some suffer so and others not as much. Suffering always can lead to one of two things. For some, it steels their heart against God, as the sun can harden and crack clay. For others, suffering draws them closer to God, as wax is softened and melts before the sun’s heat. But, no one can live long and not suffer…again the degree for each differs. I am not a monastic, Simon, and words such as you quoted are very harsh to me at times. As a priest once told me when I was seeking Orthodoxy, “Sort of sticks in your craw, huh?” Cor. 3:12ff speaks of judgment and suffering. There are words of hope, even here. “…though he himself will be saved.” Thank you Simon and Dee and Agata. So many here stir the slumbering coals of my heart. Especially thank you Fr. Stephan.

  34. Simon Avatar
    Simon

    Dean,
    Forgive me for being harsh. I certainly meant no one any disrespect. Perhaps I need to relax a little bit. But to be completely honest with you and the group it is confusing to me to hear people talk so admirably about the monks and ascetics who have taken literally and (in my opinion) to an extreme verses that might have been originally understood to be hyperbolic. So Dino’s are consistent with a pattern of extreme eskesis. If I were to learn that some great monk, Father, or Saint actually taught that for reasons connected to the human condition after the fall, suffering was a necessary precondition before receiving grace. That would not surprise me in the least.

  35. Fr. Stephen Freeman Avatar

    Simon,
    I think you are focusing on a certain way of understanding ascesis, and the language associated with it, that makes it difficult for you to accept. In that sense, I would suggest just letting it rest a bit. The Scriptures speak of the Pearl of Great Price, not the Cheap Pearl, etc. Bonhoeffer wrote of the paradox of “cheap grace.” It’s a paradox because we cannot earn it, etc.

    When it comes to pain and suffering, much of what you describe, or seem to imply, is rooted in a toxic form of suffering such as abuse, etc. I’ve written before about shame, for example, the most common experience of which is toxic, and yet, St. John of the Ladder says “we can only heal shame by shame.” He doesn’t mean that we heal toxic shame by toxic shame. He, instead, is describing a non-toxic experience – one that is described in the text itself.

    Some of this is the reason I’ve written about “unfallen suffering,” because there are voluntary, healthy things we do that someone might term “suffering,” that are, nonetheless healthy and good. I recently posted a comment within Facebook that “love is the willingness to endure suffering on behalf of another.” That is a take on “greater love has no one than this – that a man lays down his life for his friend.” The tremendous willingness you have to endure suffering on behalf of your son is a good example. Love doesn’t mean that you have a strong emotional attachment that gives you pleasure. It means that for his sake your willing to endure difficulty things – and do on a regular basis.

    Does love require suffering? Yes and no. It does not require toxic suffering. But somehow, the voluntary self-emptying that is love is indeed necessary. Its joy can, however, make the suffering seem like no suffering at all. So, Hebrews says, “Christ went to the Cross for the joy that was set before Him.” It doesn’t mean that the Cross was pleasant – but the joy certainly overwhelmed it.

    But, if suffering is reduced to the experience of toxic suffering and given only that meaning, then it can never be spoken of positively – and, never actually spoken of accurately. Generally speaking, the asceticism of Orthodox monastics can be tough, but is rarely extreme – the extreme is too likely to be toxic or to be desired for unhealthy reasons. There are stories of extreme asceticism, St. Simon the Stylite, who push the bounds of understanding – and are extremely rare in Orthodox history – as are the presence of Holy Fools.

    Those rare examples are like words in italics – they do not suggest a norm, but suggest something that must be pondered carefully lest they be misunderstood. I’m sure Dino means what he says – he just doesn’t mean what you say he means – and that’s a different thing. He’s not making the stuff up out of his own head – but drawing from the language of the tradition.

  36. Simon Avatar
    Simon

    I know Dino isn’t minting his own version of Orthodoxy. Thats why I said ´If I were to learn that some great monk, Father, or Saint actually taught that suffering was a necessary precondition that would not surprise me in the least.’ But, Im also kind of getting the impression that if that is what I found I would almost certainly be told that Im taking the Father too literally.

    Fr., you say that Dino means what he says but not what Im saying he’s saying. Okay. Then, please, explain to me what Dino means when he says ‘If [God] became our possession without any suffering on our behalf (suffering making us frenziedly seek Him only), …then we would cast Him off just as easily as we’d secured Him – we would not know His true value.’

    What does that mean?? What I hear him saying is that suffering of some kind (fallen or unfallen) is necessary to be experienced, before God can give himself to us and if he did it before we would inevitably turn away from God.

  37. Fr. Stephen Freeman Avatar

    Simon,
    God giving Himself to us and God becoming our possession are two very different things. First, God is always, always and everywhere giving Himself to us. “In Him we live and move and have our being.” God-as-my-possession is describing something else – something that has a different quality – a sort of mutuality to it. Indeed, that mutuality (“I am His and He is mine”) implies us giving ourselves to Him as He gives Himself to us. And, that sort of self-giving can indeed be described as a “suffering,” just as I described it earlier.

    If we turn away from God, He does not turn away from us, but pursues us, even into the depths of hell. What I hear you implying is God saying, “Sorry we can’t have a relationship because you haven’t suffered enough.” And that’s not at all what I hear. Much less do I hear that God needs to make me suffer so that I will turn to Him.

    I hear something like this:

    But Jesus said to them again, “Children, how hard it is to enter the kingdom of God!
    25 It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”
    26 And they were exceedingly astonished, and said to him, “Then who can be saved?”
    27 Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for all things are possible with God.”
    28 Peter began to say to him, “Lo, we have left everything and followed you.”
    29 Jesus said, “Truly, I say to you, there is no one who has left house or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or lands, for my sake and for the gospel,
    30 who will not receive a hundredfold now in this time, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and lands, with persecutions, and in the age to come eternal life.
    31 But many that are first will be last, and the last first.”
    (Mk. 10:24-31 RSV)

    And, because God is a radically generous God, we generally give up far less and still find that He has given Himself to us in abundance.

  38. Dino Avatar
    Dino

    Simon
    Suffering is not a necessary precondition for Grace and God does not desire our suffering. He desires our Joy. Grace can come without any suffering. We also lose grace very easily. Remember this: Experience is more useful than grace There’s joyous ascesis and suffering that isn’t felt as such thanks to the fervour Grace bestows. Ascesis is just a language we use to express our fervour towards God. There’s also suffering we bring upon ourselves through our self-absorbed misinterpretation of things – the opposite of joyous zeal and a corollary of our egotistical demanding-ness: Not accepting God’s providence when it’s veiled (a test to our faith)…
    The quote is not talking about Grace but about the state and expwrience that aids “stability in Grace”. Rare souls have the humility to receive grace (whether after ascesis or not) and then never once look at another person that sins and scandalises and lacks Grace and not judge them as lacking in effort or whatever… the inevitable merciful allowance of God for them to then “fall ” (and consequently acquire humility – as a more secure foundation for stability in grace than judging) can be understood and experienced by them as extreme suffering. St Silouan’s experience is very candid on all this. Christ’s word that in this world we will inevitably have suffering has the emphasis on “take courage for I have oveecome”. Please try to use that as the interpretative prism for this stuff. The point is that we can have joy as Christians, no matter what. We speak about suffering so that we can have a genuine undefeated joy. A joy that is context-dependant and is only there when there’s no suffering is clearly not unbeatable. Only that joy that remains even on the Cross of sufferings is unbeatable – fairly obviously. That joy has been promised us and it can only be tested by us as such, and marvelled at, when sufferings come and we see that they (finally) do not rock our stability in it.!… Does that make sense?

  39. Dino Avatar
    Dino

    *Experience is more useful than the fleeting experience of Grace

  40. Dean Avatar
    Dean

    Dino,
    In what sense are you using “grace” above, in saying that experience is more useful than grace. In the Orthodox Study Bible it notes that “grace is the gift of God’s own presence and action in His creation….
    Grace is God’s uncreated ENERGY….”
    (Their caps). I am confused by your use.

  41. David Waite Avatar
    David Waite

    Byron – When you said, “I still cringe with anger when I see the hate of God rife in the world. My immediate response is to cry for the power to bring them down; to prove them wrong,” you sounded like a Psalmist.

  42. Dino Avatar
    Dino

    Dean
    Experience is more useful than the fleeting experience of Grace.
    Saint Silouan’s (to take one example) Great and perfect Grace experienced as a novice when he saw Christ could not become permanent to his great angst. His experience (long, arduous) proved of greater worth because after it the experience of Grace’s visitation wasnt fleeting but could finally become permanent. I think it’s worth reading elder Sophrony on this before trying to speculate and iterpret.

  43. Dean Avatar
    Dean

    Dino,
    You speak as a Greek raised in Church, steeped in the Church Fathers. Here I am, an American convert, raised evangelical still knowing little of the Fathers. I read the book on St. Siluoan about 8 years back. I lent it and never saw it again. As I age certain things do not stick anymore! I received Christ when I was 22. I am now 72. I.have been Orthodox 23 years. Somehow, though, I cannot see God’s grace/presence (as in the above Orth. Study Bible quote), flitting in and out of us. We are temples of the Holy Spirit. We have been sealed by the Holy Spirit. We have been transferred into the Kingdom of His beloved Son. Our life is hid with God in Christ. We are sons/daughters of God through faith, being baptized into Christ we have put on Christ. Now I realize that all this has to be actualized, lived out. Many times in these years, I have failed Christ. I have suffered because of my own dumb doing, sometimes rightly for others. At times I have keenly felt His presence, other times not at all. Yet no matter, He abides. Dino, you taught me to value night prayer. It’s the sweetest part of my life. If I sit surrounded by icons in the dark, I do sense His presence (subtly, never the same), He infuses me with His peace…in spite of myself! So, my American/Church /cultural experience is much different than yours. And I do greatly appreciate you and your insights, my Greek friend/brother in England.

  44. Fr. Stephen Freeman Avatar

    Dean,
    God does not ever abandon us. But it is common to read in the Fathers about the experience of “losing grace.” It is not meant to describe losing all communion with God, but refers to a dynamic the course of our relationship with God. I found it disturbing when I first ran across it.

    Of course, with a Protestant background, we shudder when first we hear, “Most Holy Theotokos, save us?” The West would speak of a “Dark Night of the Soul,” and mean much the same thing as St. Silouan and many others speaking about grace.

  45. Dean Avatar
    Dean

    Thank you Father Stephen. Yes, the Theotokos saving us was a very real stumbling block at first…this is what Fr. Terry was referring to when he said to me that, “it sticks in your craw, right?”
    Well, it quickly got unstuck. How precious to know now her comfort and intercessions.

  46. Simon Avatar
    Simon

    Fr.
    I appreciate the distinction you made between God giving himself to us and becoming our possession, and why that distinction matters.

  47. Fr. Stephen Freeman Avatar

    Simon,
    It seemed important to me.

  48. Dino Avatar
    Dino

    Dean
    Although I wouldnt normally disclose private backgrounds I would correct your speculation a little. Mine is closer to: great (and idelibly marking) Grace as child (despite more than usual sin seeking). Then: long period of sin-experience and “research” (as goes well beyond what anybody else around would dare), and then: after tasting complete hell and miraculously being dragged out of it, a period of Athos-education and living with saints to be cured from such extreme perversion a little. Of course gleaning that life there so close and first hand is worth proclaiming..

  49. David Waite Avatar
    David Waite

    Dino,
    How closely our lives parallel! The major difference (and it is quite significant) is that I did not go to Athos. I got married and had children. I guess that leaves me on the First Step of St. John Climacus’s Ladder of Divine Ascent:

    “Some people living carelessly in the world have asked me: ‘We have wives and are beset with social cares, and how can we lead the solitary life?’ I replied to them: ‘Do all the good you can; do not speak evil of anyone; do not steal from anyone; do not lie to anyone; do not be arrogant towards anyone; do not hate any one; be sure you go to church; be compassionate to the needy; do not offend anyone; do not wreck another man’s domestic happiness; and be content with what your own wives can give you.
    If you behave in this way you will not be far from the Kingdom of Heaven.’”

    I pray that, by the grace of God, I might do at least this much.

  50. Dino Avatar
    Dino

    I got married too. The funny thing is that my two best friends (that went after my very extended stay ) were the ones who ended up staying.

  51. David Waite Avatar
    David Waite

    Dino,

    !

  52. Mark Basil Avatar
    Mark Basil

    Dear Simon;

    I have read all of this correspondence late (some of it took my breath away, some broke my heart and shocked me, some comments warmed it).

    I was surprised no one, I dont think, recommended the little book, “The Doors of the Sea”, by David B. Hart. He addresses *exactly* the (abstract) philosophical side of this question of God’s culpability in the suffering of innocents. I hope it is of some help.

    in Christ’s love;
    -Mark Basil

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