Comments

244 responses to “Going to Hell with the Terrorists and Torturers”

1. 

   Christopher

   January 8, 2015

   “People who don’t know the real story of a child’s experience do more damage than good, Christopher, by promoting violence against him. I hope you never say something like this to the 5-year-old child’s family, because you will cause a wound you can never imagine, among a group of people who are already confused and hurting.”

   I have not said anything, but not for reasons you would have me I think. The level of trust with this boys parents is just not there, so such a topic is beyond a place where words would have any good effect. Your idealism is revealed when you say such over the top things as “by promoting violence against him”. What this boy is missing is certain basic boundaries and a recognition of the child that he is. The boys parents have tried to rationalize, literally “reason” with him about his problem since he was three (no that is not a typo – three)! They are confused and hurting all right, but it is because of their own idealism and philosophy that refuses to acknowledge basic truths about humanity and children (clue as to why: they are both university professors). The boy is a sweet kid, and quite “normal” emotionally, psychologically, etc. The problem does not lie in any extreme sensitivity or faculty in him (well, I suppose there could be something there but like the doctor says the first prescription is an aspirin and some rest – we will do the MRI later if the problem persists).

   The rest of what you say sounds fantastical. I am old enough to have been raised in a time where the majority of my peers were “whipped” or spanked. Yes for some children and parents it was “violent” – but for most it was controlled and was corrective (more or less – too often less for the reasons Fr. says above). The idea of it leading to the sexual perversion you speak of?? Well, that is just fantastical. Perhaps you deal with a certain subset of abuse and the associated trauma. Fine, but it does no good to project that on the rest of us. My father and mother, for all their faults, were not abusive and did not employ any correction that led to sexual perversion – and neither did most mothers and fathers of that generation. For every extreme and unique example (like the boy you describe above) I can cite 100’s, 1000’s of counter examples.

   I stand uncorrected: that boy needs a few good spankings (i.e. gentle, timed with offense so that it is a teachable moment, etc. etc.) and a parenting philosophy more aligned with this universe than some imaginary one…

2. 

   Christopher

   January 8, 2015

   Also, you say much about police that is both true and some that is not. I am the first to criticize the way their training has become “militarized” due to the so called drug war, and especially since 9/11. The “us vs them” tactics – taken from the military – is what has lead to the gunning down of children with BB guns, etc. Much of what you lament about their personal failings is more due to the nature of the personality types that tend to choose that line of work IMO, though you are correct in that at least part of it is from the content of their work. “Society” is not “off loading it’s problems” I don’t think – because behind that idea lies the idea that “society” can “solve” humanities problems (i.e. it’s fallenness) , and we are back into the idea of “progress”, etc…

3. 

   Devan

   January 8, 2015

   Boy that Christopher! What a hoser, eh?

4. 

   Karen

   January 8, 2015

   Christopher, I do know somebody who strongly believes “spanking = violence” (with no room for any nuance there) and so from their earliest years also only reasoned with her children to attempt to shape their behavior/attitudes, etc.. I got the distinct impression on more than one occasion that the oldest child especially would have much rather had a simple cease and desist order, along with a quick spanking for non-compliance (or even a hot poker in her eye!), and gotten it over with a few of those times rather than had to face one of Mommy’s long talks again! 🙂

   On the other hand, I have also walked out of a “Christian” homeschool convention workshop in my home state on “biblical discipline” of children feeling physically ill because what was being taught was the very literalist interpretation of the OT injunction to not “spare the rod”–that “very highly developed theology of discipline” that AR describes in her initial post on this subject. I agree with AR completely that, that particular (highly rationalistic and calculated) theology and practice is dark, dark, dark and demonic. It is also, sadly, not as uncommon (at least within this particular “Fundamentalist” subculture) as you might like to suppose.

   I had profound misgivings from the get-go when the workshop presenter began the section on corporeal punishment (thank God, I was biblically educated enough not to buy his hermeneutic), but became physically ill when the question was asked “how much is too much?” about the “beating with the rod”, and the presenter answered in a completely cold and casual tone that if you strike the face that is too much and if you actually injure the child (i.e., his body) that is too much, but if you don’t actually leave a weal, you’re not doing the job right. . . . I wish I didn’t have to report that this nightmare of a teaching was under the auspices of a “Christian” homeschool convention and in the name of fidelity to the God of the Bible. It still makes me sick to think about it, and I know it is still going on. I have read enough to know there is an entire subculture within the American Fundamentalist subculture (could even touch the entire subculture to varying degrees) where the very thing that AR describes (including the connection to sexual abuse and profound sexual dysfunction in some cases) is not so very rare as you might think, and may even be endemic. For examples, you could just look up the (very current) scandals surrounding Bill Gothard’s organization, Vision Forum, and (most recently) Bob Jones University’s handling of complaints of sexual abuse, for starters. I personally know folks spiritually damaged by Gothard’s teaching–its extreme authoritarian approach did also make them easy prey for sexual predators in positions of authority over them. All of these teachers and institutions have had or still enjoy varying degrees of approval and legitimacy in the conservative Evangelical institutions and subculture I came out of.

5. 

   Scott Morizot

   January 9, 2015

   Karen, given that what you describe is still widely taught within the Southern Baptist Convention, I don’t even know that it can be called a subculture other than in the broadest sense. The SBC is, last time I checked, still the largest Protestant denomination. I remember years ago I thumbed through an earlier edition of James Dobson’s “The Strong-Willed Child” from the church library and being horrified. (I also heard one of the stories in it used in a sermon which left me rigid in anger.) I’ve heard he may have learned to make some of his language more palatable for a larger audience, but the underlying message is still the same.

   Christopher, it’s unclear to me, as a matter of simple definition, why there’s any debate over whether or not spanking is a form of violence. That act inherently involves the application of physical force striking a child with the hand or other instrument with the intent to cause pain in order to control behavior. It might, in certain cases, be a mild form of violence. One can argue, I suppose, that it’s a beneficial form of violence. But it’s not clear to me how it can be argued that ‘spanking’ is something other than what it is.

   It’s also something that has been studied repeatedly over the years, both in terms of utility and in negative effects and consequences on the child, and the results really aren’t ambiguous. Of course, children are resilient, often more so than adults, so in many cases they are able to metaphorically shake it off if it’s not chronic or overly severe. But “it probably won’t damage my child permanently or too badly” was never a standard with which I was comfortable when my children were younger.

6. 

   Barbara

   January 9, 2015

   AR, thank you for sharing your parenting wisdom. It is quite beautiful and caring and hopeful. I believe it is also Christ-like, the Shepherd searching for the lost sheep….I am a parent who deeply wishes I had not been influenced by ‘Christian’ understandings of discipline that ARE inherently violent and completely inattentive to the uniqueness of each child and their nature as image bearers of Christ. Years ago, I even influenced others to view things the same way, to my deep shame. I wish I could take back every moment of that influence, every harsh word and every spanking thought to be delivered for their own ‘good’. The thought of them fills me with pain and nausea. I have seen how this kind of discipline has negatively impacted my own children, their relationship with us, with God, with others…. My own experiences growing up also significantly impacted my relationship with God and others. What you are saying is absolutely not fantastical. Thinking a five year old or a seven month old baby needs a spanking is fantastical and absolutely heartbreaking.

7. 

   Michael Bauman

   January 9, 2015

   We all face violence every day. Relatively mild forms most of the time, but the manipulation and fear that our culture is made of is a constant and it is rooted in violence against the created order and in rebellion against God.

   Being raised in a home where there was a constant threat of violence has had a lasting impact on me. I was rarely spanked nor was I often the target of the violence, but my father was an aggressive man who wanted his own way in most things. So despite his many wonderful acts and his fundamentally caring nature, violence always loomed.

   My parenting, the marriage to my late wife, my interrelationships with others and especially with God, suffers as a result.

   Until these discussions, I have never seriously considered the other options to aggressive behavior. I’ve never seen anything else modeled or even talked about except in the modern ‘pacifism’ which, to me, is just another form of anger and aggression in many.

   So violence has a deep root in me. It is like an addiction and/or a disease in many ways. I have begun to see that violence is the opposite of giving Glory to God and indeed the opposite of that we are called to as human beings. Seeing it and acting on it are still far apart however.

   Yet, like the poor, it will always be with us (wars and rumors of wars) until the Kingdom is made manifest. First in our hearts I think.

   May the Lord forgive me.

8. 

   AR

   January 9, 2015

   Barbara, my own Mom is in Heaven. When she died we had been gradually working toward a better mutual understanding of what went on when I was little, me always trying to balance the wonderful things with the hard things, trying to understand how they could both come from the same person, and her always trying to hold on to the hope that she had been a good Mom even if some things didn’t work the way they were supposedly going to.

   But we never got to finally set the whole thing to rest. She was taken suddenly. I wish I could look her in the face now and tell her, I’m getting better, it’s OK, I forgive you, I know you were deceived by others and by your own maternal concern for me. I wish I could list all the wonderful things she gave me – her love for nature and animals, her ability to laugh at herself, her dramatic streak that made everything more interesting, her writing abilities, homeschooling me when school was hurting more than helping, giving me lots of siblings even though her health wasn’t good, making Christmas special every year, and so much more.

   My words are for those whose mistakes are still before them – not to cause guilt and shame in those whose mistakes are in the past. I’ve fallen into the same traps I preach against, finding patterns of behavior I thought I’d rejected burned deep into my psyche. We are all one, we all share everything at the deepest level, no one is in hell or in heaven alone.

   God grant you peace.

9. 

   AR

   January 9, 2015

   Michael, your words resonate with me. I sometimes talk as if I’m only reacting to things that have happened to me but as I told Barbara, this is the outgrowth of struggling against things I find in my own soul. I’m glad we are in this together. Thank you for your forgiving spirit in the face of my sometimes impatience and harshness.

10. 

    AR

    January 9, 2015

    Scott, excellent points. Karen, thank you for your witness as well.

11. 

    AR

    January 9, 2015

    Christopher. All those kids of your generation who took no harm, supposedly, from an occasional “gentle” spanking? Those kids grew up and parented my generation.

    Get the picture?

    Now I am not saying that EVERY spanking results in sexual dysfunction. I AM asking you to back up and look at the forest instead of the trees. That’s not idealism. That is simply a capacity for handling ideas.

    A culture in which moral boundaries are taught through violence is a culture which has incorporated violence into its morality.

    And a child who does the right thing through fear of pain may go on doing the right thing, but he is not doing it BECAUSE it is the right thing. Someone sticks a gun to his head and tells him do something wrong, guess which way he’s going?

    ***

    Atheists also find faith, God, and the existence of the human spirit to be “fantastical” and “imaginary.” I always tell such people, “Well, either I’m seeing things or you’re blind. Those are the only two options, really.”

    I’m saying the same thing to you.

12. 

    Christopher

    January 9, 2015

    Well interesting – I have to admit I am surprised at the strong reaction around this subject. I have to admit at being a bit perplexed at some recent court cases that deemed ALL spanking to be “violent” but I see here this philosophy up close. I have noticed that not all courts and the larger society agrees with what I still believe to be a rather extreme and idealistic view. However, as our society lurches towards this utopia or that extremism, who knows?

    I was aware of the “spare the rod” theology (if you can call it a “theology”) but was not aware of how widespread it was. I would not have thought the Southern Baptists to be a major proponent. I know quite a few Southern Baptists quite well (some in my extended family) and this philosophy has taken hold of them – some of the have spanked their children and some not, though I am confident they have not done so in a “violent” way. In any case I will have to consider that this philosophy is more wide spread than I realized.

    As far as a definition of violence and its relationship to “spanking”, I don’t consider “spanking” to be an act of violence (though I recognize some people who abuse their children do attempt to label such abuse “spanking”). Indeed, I think I would have a narrower definition of “violence” than what many of the posters here want to hold. Indeed, by some of the above definitions even this discussion is “violent” (or any exhortation) , and I think that pushes the definition into meaninglessness. I would restrict the definition to something that can be defined as criminal in intent. Though as this discussion has revealed many of you want to criminalize “spanking”.

    I see some of you suffered unnecessarily in childhood – and while I can recognize that I do not believe that it necessarily leads to what I am calling an “idealistic” view of spanking. I also was spanked, and I do recall even being in “pain” (but I have to admit as an adult is was quite minor) and in “fear” (though I have to admit as an adult it was usually a good reaction because the consequences of not obeying my parents would have been worse), but looking back I can say that it was either a positive correction or neutral/problematic – I did not suffer “trauma”, either physical or emotional (unless I have managed to bury it unconsciously – don’t think so). Perhaps this is a result of having essentially loving (if flawed) parents. I did not then and do not today doubt their love and care for me. This is a real blessing that others do not and did not have I realize. Also, someone upstream seems to think I was advocating the spanking of infants/toddlers – I assure you I was not

    Perhaps also because of my personality and life experience I do not overly “fear” violence or rank it too high. Indeed, I practice it, train others in it, and am quite skilled in it (not to boast – this is simply the fact). I recall Fr. Alexander Atty of blessed memory often saying “we all suffer and die”. Anyone who has had a loved one die of a disease such as cancer understands the “violence” of disease and death – it is something that we ultimately all face one way or another and I would encourage anyone and everyone to Christianity start thinking about it, praying for courage and acceptance in the face of it (you will not escape it), etc. As the Saints witness this inevitable bodily destruction, pain, and death is nothing compared to our judgement, etc.

    Also, I believe many people suffer from unnecessarily from fear of bodily assault, lack of confidence, often resulting from childhood bullying they suffered (at the hands of parents or peers), past sexual assault, etc. I would encourage you to consider a local self defense class or karate/boxing/judo/jui-jitsu dojo (after speaking to your priest and/or counselor). It has been my experience that a little skill and fitness goes some distance to helping people find a certain “balance” with such trauma and the hard reality of living in a “violent” world. Such training is also good for children who fall on the “introverted” side of the spectrum, are unusually sensitive, etc. (like my daughter). Properly supervised, it can boast their confidence – though beware of the teachers/schools who seem to have taken the Cobra Kai dojo from the Karate Kid as their inspiration. There is a dark side to this, as there is to all youth sports in our culture. I also personally know women (and men) who have been helped by properly training with firearms and earning their concealed carry license – at least that is an option for those of you who don’t live in states that have de facto repealed the second amendment.

    Funny true story: I was late for school for the umpteenth time my senior year in high school. Mr. Ming, the diminutive assistant vice principle gave me the option of either so many days in detention (which meant getting to school a full hour earlier) or “swats” (i.e. corporeal punishment). I choose the latter – better to get it over with in a few seconds right? He gave me a sentence of five swats, got out the board, and told me to bend over the desk. One through four was nothing, and I was congratulating myself on my clever choice. Then five came, and “wham” – he put something behind that one and it really really, I mean really stung. I sprung out of my position and faced him, probably in a fighting stance and with a certain intent on my face. His eyes widen and he took a few steps back rather quickly, no doubt in fear as to what was going to happen next. A tense couple of seconds later I relaxed and said “that last one hurt” and he quickly escorted me out of his office…I still think it was a better choice than detention…;)

13. 

    Michael Bauman

    January 9, 2015

    There is an unspoken element in our conversation: male-female differences.

    The masculine challenge to each other and between fathers and sons is often physical in nature and it can get out of hand. It has a real purpose and function however for building character, resilance and chivalry.

    I’ve never met a woman who understands it. Many I have known are threatened by it even in a proper form.

    But that is likely as it should be…praise God.

14. 

    Jane

    January 9, 2015

    Well, hmm. Yes, spanking can be sexually conditioning. Denying that, to me, just seems prudish or naive, and not in a good way!

    I mean really, you are bent over a bed while an aggressive, emotionally charged “dominant” looms over you from behind and rhythmically strikes you on the backside until he gets his satisfaction. The likelihood of this becoming at least a mildly sexually charged experience for one or both parties seems high.

    I realize that spanking rituals vary, but frankly this is a common one, and for me a good reason of disapproving of the practice altogether.

    That said, I’m not idealistic about 100% gentle parenting methods, either, based on my own attempts to parent that way and observations of my peers! I believe those methods work and can be done well, but what can be harder to realize until you try is that they require a *lot* of self awareness, self mastery, empathy, intuition, patience, and attunement on the part of the parent, and most people just aren’t quite there, and trying to force oneself to parent at a level one simply lacks the emotional capacity for can cause a lot of frustration and back fire. My thought is that a swat on the lower leg or hand might be a realistic “second best” resort that is less problematic?

15. 

    Scott Morizot

    January 9, 2015

    Jane, spanking would only be “second best” in my mind if it accomplished anything other than short-term behavior modification and was not always accompanied by a raft of potential negative effects.

    But neither of those are, in fact, true. I’ve been wrapping up my bachelor’s (one I started in 1986) as I approach my 50th birthday and I’ve taken advantage of my access to peer-reviewed research online through my university’s library to see if anything has changed in recent years. And it hasn’t. Other than very short-term behavior modification, at which spanking is reasonably effective, it’s generally not effective achieving the parenting goals most parents at least say they want to achieve and it comes with a huge raft of increased risk factors, even after controlling for more severe forms of abuse.

    It’s both an ineffective form of parenting and highly risky. Those are as close to established facts as we can get studying human behavior and psychology. If chronic rather than occasional, spanking even alters the brain (neuroscience) of the child.

    The practice has nothing to support it. No justification. Nothing supported by the evidence. It’s a bad practice.

    Is it possible to avoid spanking and still be a poor parent? Sure. But if one is that bad at parenting, spanking a child isn’t going to make things better.

    Scott

16. 

    tess

    January 9, 2015

    Hey y’all, remember the story of St. Silouan’s father?

    An illiterate peasant, who often made mistakes with the Lord’s Prayer:

    Semyon’s was a large family: father, mother, five sons-brothers and two daughters. They lived together and were content. The older brothers worked with their father. Once, during the harvest, Semyon prepared dinner in the field. It was Friday, but Semyon had forgotten, and so he prepared pork, and everyone ate it. Half a year passed from that day, and one winter holiday, Semyon’s father turned to him with a kind smile: “Son, remember when you fed me with pork in the field? It was a Friday, and you know, I ate it then as if it were carrion.”

    — “Why didn’t you tell me then?”

    — “I didn’t want to embarrass you.”

    In telling about these events from his life in his father’s house, the Elder would add, “This is the type of Elder one should be: he never became angry, always had an even and meek disposition. Think about it: he waited a half-year for a good moment to tell me without shaming me.”

    And later:

    Young, handsome, strong, and by that time wealthy, Semyon enjoyed life. The villagers liked him for his happy and peaceful character, and the girls looked at him as a good marriage possibility. He also fell in love with one of them, and before the question of marriage was resolved, one late night, “something happened.”

    Strangely, the next morning, while working with his father, the latter asked Semyon, “Son, where were you last night, my heart was aching.” These meek words fell deep into Semyon’s soul, and later, remembering his father, he said: “I didn’t follow in his footsteps. He was completely illiterate, he even said ‘Our Father’ with mistakes, having learned it by ear in church. But he was a humble and wise man.”

    And the man succeeded in raising a saint.

17. 

    Christopher

    January 9, 2015

    Well gee whiz Jane, when you put it like THAT, I confess I have been naive. Really, my wife and I have never thought of it like that…(that you are aware of)…

    I am not surprised though. I recall being shocked (well, mildly taken aback really) a couple of years ago when one of the other instructors showed me certain homosexualist web sites that make generous use of photographs of men practicing jui-jitsu. We are after all rolling around on the floor half naked…some of us are even good looking! 😉

    I should have seen that coming as quite a few years before that I was in a “team building excersice” at work. We were asked to come up and draw our favorite hobby on the white board. Well, the only thing I could think of was jui-jitsu, so naturally I drew myself and another person grappling. Everyone else thought we were doing something quite different…let’s just say the team thought of me different from that point forward.

    Scott, as far as research into spanking by those in the academy, I admit I am ‘a priori’ dubious if I may torture some language there. Given the bias in the academy (as evidenced by it’s current very political posturing on homosexualism for example) I wonder if it might not be safer to assume that the opposite of what they say is in fact the truth of the matter. My very last job in the academy I worked with a researcher who was trying to put together good data to show that infant boys are in fact traumatized by a circumcision, whether they are given a local or not. By the time I left, I was certain that the data was going to show this to be a fact whether the data showed it or not. Someone had to put an end to this Jewish conspiracy, and by gosh, she was going to be a part of it.

    Now if you’ll will excuse me I have to go find my wife and discuss this important new spanking idea……. :0

18. 

    AR

    January 9, 2015

    Good points, Tess.

    Thanks, everyone. I have expended as much emotional energy as I can in this conversation and it is time for me to bow out. God bless each and every one of us.

19. 

    Matt

    January 9, 2015

    — Indeed, I think I would have a narrower definition of “violence” than what many of the posters here want to hold.

    — But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

20. 

    AR

    January 9, 2015

    Whoa, Christopher, just did a double take on your sarcastic comment to my dear friend Jane, there. Being the sweet innocent flower that I am, I didn’t take your meaning at first. I guess we know now why you defend spanking so vigorously. What did you have, girls or boys?

    Yeah, now I am doubly glad I am walking away from this conversation. It is polluted.

    ***

    Michael, without dipping back into THAT well, I wanted to say that I found your comment very interesting. It is indeed like watching someone talk in a foreign language when I watch how respect seems to be the currency in the masculine world. It can be endearing or it can be frightening for a woman to watch. For some men, giving is more blessed than receiving, and for some, their need for respect is like a black hole. I think that love has a similar place in the feminine world.

    It’s funny but I’ve often thought that hierarchy would never, ever have been invented by women. We just wouldn’t have thought of it. Which is curious because lots of men over the years have seen themselves as being higher in a hierarchy than the women they loved, and I just wonder if for those women, that hierarchy just didn’t exist because the men loved them. How else could they have borne it? So it’s odd, right? But getting somehow close to the mystery.

21. 

    Christopher

    January 9, 2015

    AR,

    I did not mean sarcasm with my response – indeed I was in agreement. I had not really given enough credit to the hyper sexualized response some might have, but we live in a hyper sexualized culture where semi-pornography is the norm in advertising and elsewhere and real pornography is just a click away, so it is a real danger. I don’t fear it for myself or for the many others who have a healthy view of spanking and it’s place in discipline, but I see the point. Now, what my wife and I do is between us and you will have to fish elsewhere… 😉

22. 

    AR

    January 9, 2015

    Christopher, I am glad to learn I misread your jocularity for sarcasm.

    I wasn’t fishing; I don’t care. I thought you were saying, ‘of course spanking is sexual’ – so I didn’t see how you could go on promoting it for innocent children given that understanding.

    I’ll simply add that for many who experienced spanking as sexual, they were growing up in extremely sheltered homes where there was no access even to anatomy books, much less porn or worldly contemporaries, and where no one ever wore anything remotely revealing and one only had friends at church, where everyone was the same as your family, and they were all homeschooled or went to the church school.

    Now it may be that there’s a perfect balance of “in the world but not of it” where spanking does the least possible harm. And I don’t want to paint someone who smacks a diapered toddler with the same brush as a Gothardite – something a friend pointed out to me in private. And I’d like to give everyone the benefit of the doubt.

    My original point was more subtle – if the same goal can be reached through goodness or through harshness, isn’t the gentle path preferable to a Christian? There’s so much possible territory between trying to reason with a three year old and striking a three year old. Besides, reviewing your posts, I see that you do have young children, but you haven’t had to spank them yet. The first time you do strike one of your children, the look of betrayal in their eyes will be a cross-roads for you. Just a word of experience.

23. 

    Christopher

    January 9, 2015

    AR,

    I have to admit that I often draw attention from those who come from (and concerns seem largely informed by) those with a *strict*, *extremely sheltered* or *fundamentalist* backgrounds. This is true on many subjects and has occurred for years. Does not seem to happen when I discuss these things in person, even with those from these same backgrounds. I even have friends (and have since I was a teenager due to the place where I grew up) who were true, honest to goodness “fundamentalists” (and not just mere Southern Baptists or “evangelicals” or such) Perhaps it’s my writing style? I will have to think on it. I do admit I am often not very sympathetic with what they seemed concerned with. Recently, on another blog, a women with such a background was very concerned about an allegedly real and growing threat of *fundamentalism* in SCOBA (I know, the term is now out of date but seems more widely known) Orthodoxy. Hogwash, it’s the opposite (a secularized, modernist, “liberal” mindset) that is the real present threat. No doubt someday *fundamentalism* will get it’s time in the sun in Orthodoxy in America – but clearly that day is not today.

    Coming back to my extended family and the boy I described – once, while he and his family were leaving our home after one the usual weekend visits, the boy was upset (he did not want to leave). His mother picked him up, and he struck her a few times, and finished it off with an eye gouging. She was literally crying – both from the physical pain of the eye gouging but also from her despair at the situation, the utter failure of her discipline, perhaps Fr. Stephen would say there is no small amount of shame involved in this situation, etc. Is there something in between? Seems like a hypothetical, one that seems like such a luxury in the immediate problem of the formation of the character of this child.

    If and when one of my children eye gouges me (or what ever the situation is that calls for a spanking) that ‘look of betrayal’ you describe, however heart felt in the moment on her part, will not signify something more important than the real threat to her physical, mental, or moral character that is the reason behind my considered decision to use a spanking. In other words, I as the parent am in the position to know what is and what is not a real betrayal to her true well being and if I am a loving parent then that will be apparent to her as she matures despite my (and her) flaws, failures, and sins.

    It does take maturity and no small amount of Grace in these decisions. Between “stimulous” or “data” and “reaction” one has to have “time” and habit of self control to have the correct decision. This is another (very Christian) lesson that has been reinforced for me through the martial arts. In a fight/self defense/high pressure situation, you will never control your opponent and/or the situation unless you have a certain amount of mastery over yourself. A large part of martial arts training is the cultivation of that inner calm, self control in the face of immense physical and mental pressure, all to the purpose of carving out that little bit of reaction time to decide “do I do A, B, or nothing at all right now?”. This allows you to put off to one side panic, anger, etc. (panicked and angry men/women never win fights). This self control is small at first, but grows with training and experience. However, the military has a saying: “self control is a limited resource”. In other words, we all have limits (some higher than others) and all will be defeated in the end. Thus, the need for Grace…

24. 

    Meg Photini

    January 10, 2015

    AR, your point that every child internalizes and understands the experience differently is correct. From my experience, I can say that the few times I was spanked as a child were good for me–because I was given clear boundaries with consequences, and also because my mom would hug me and talk to me after the spanking, and wouldn’t let me go until we were reconciled, no matter how long it took.

    My memories of shame are different. The times when my mother took out her frustration by yelling or slapping me. The time when I was going out the door to right a wrong I had done to someone, and she treated me to an hour-long lecture. I’m glad I didn’t remember that experience when preparing for my first confession…

    I’ve disciplined a three-year-old who persisted in trying to swim to the deep end of the pool, against her parents’ orders, by simply scooping her up and shouting “Hey!” to scare her. Then I asked, “Are you going to stay where your parents told you?” She nodded, I took her there, and we played together.

    I guess what I want to say is that (controlled) violence may be necessary, but if the violent act is the end of the story, that’s when you’ve lost.

25. 

    drewster2000

    January 10, 2015

    I think the upshot is to work out our salvation with fear and trembling on the spanking issue, just like everything else. There are horror stories on both sides of the fence. I have noticed in myself that when there is the anger of wounded ego in me, I don’t do it right. My response must be doing whatever it is with love in my heart for the child in question.

    Called violence or not, it does seem to be required in some situations, but again without ego on the parents’ part. This can be extremely difficult – actually no matter what the discipline method is.

    Here in this broken world we still use carrots and sticks. I believe both will go away in the next life, but here they seem to be necessary evils. If that’s so then part of our job is to practice evil as little as possible, the best method of course being an ever-growing relationship with God so that we become like Him – all flame.

26. 

    Dino

    January 10, 2015

    Dewster,
    I cannot disagree.

    I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.

    Elder Aimilianos who was adamant that one must always choose the meek method, when presented with the situation, rather than the force, through his discernment would breake his own rule.
    But there was never any ego, just love. If one can have the meekness of Christ, then and only then can they use what might seem like the coercion Christ used at some exceptional times. Once when the, young at the time, to-be-Spiritual-Father of the monastery knocked on his door, to his surprise he heard that the loving Elder was telling another monk off intensely (this monk was a particularly insensitive character)… He was even more surprised to hear the Elder welcome him in with the most sweet and meek greeting voice. He had to ask afterwards ‘how can you switch like that?!’ The Elder’s answer was that there was no anger, just discerning ministry involved. Greatest watchfullnes is involved in order to maintain such a dangerous thing.

27. 

    drewster2000

    January 10, 2015

    Dino, well said.

    We would like a formula. We crave a set of rules or a list of what is off limits. For the most part God refuses this request, offering a relationship with Him instead. This state of affairs will never change…..until we give up and give God His way. It is the only way.

28. 

    Barbara

    January 10, 2015

    AR, thank you for your kind and helpful words. The path you have chosen is definitely not an easy path, the easy path is to get compliance at any cost and believe all is well – which you can get because you are bigger and stronger and control so much of a young child’s life. You may suffer a gouged eye and the blows of children just learning to deal with the hurts and frustrations of life. However the easy path leads to much more than a gouged eye when your children are older and find out that you really don’t control them in any way. Your heart will be broken in ways you never expect and you will realize that you missed many rich opportunities to share true wisdom with them. And then you will find your way onto the path of meekness because your love will take you there and you realize that there is no other path. And it is never too late.

    I think it was St. Silouan who said you cannot be too gentle or too kind. These words are difficult for anyone in authority to hear. Gentleness and kindness are viewed as passive, as doing nothing, but they are anything but passive. They require the strength of Christ who is meek and lowly and gentle of heart. They are an active path of attentiveness, humility, willingness to suffer with, self-emptying, and then a response that is timely, discerning and contextualized, nuanced for that particular situation and person/persons. This is economia.

    I am a person in authority. I speak from experience as a parent and an educator. I am sometime criticized for my gentle approach but I have seen its truth and the life it brings. I am willing to be criticized.

    I am a usually wary of false dichotomies, but in the matter of violence vs gentleness, I am willing to err on the side of gentleness and kindness and spaciousness because I am much more interested in calling others into being than in imposing my will on them. My will is a nightmare. Archimandrite Vasileios speaks so frequently of how our love for others needs to be spacious in order for their being to emerge. I am inspired by this word and look for more spacious ways of being with others continually.

    So much of the way we use authority is rooted in our views of the child and what we think about our ethical responsibilities towards them as adults. Children need our guidance because they are inexperienced, not because they are naturally evil. The child soldier does not choose this path without influence. There is also something very whole and beautiful about childhood. They can startle us with their moral heights and compassion at a very young age. I have seen tiny toddlers give up a loved toy to someone who they see is hurt. They teach us to love unconditionally, to forgive, play with joy, to be simple. It is not something to be escaped from, it is something for us as adults to honour and learn to enter and re-enter. God reveals himself to children.

29. 

    AR

    January 10, 2015

    Barbara, I am silent before your gift of wisdom and experience. There is prayer on you breath. Thank you so much.

30. 

    AR

    January 10, 2015

    Christopher, I had the same belief when I first became Orthodox – the liberals are the real problem, Orthodoxy should be helping the conservative cause win. If you go back five years you’ll probably find comments from me to that effect on this very blog. I’m sure you’ll think it’s a victory of liberalism that I no longer believe that. I think that liberalism and conservatism are just different stages in the same process of corruption, and depending on which natural virtue they possess, people representing various kinds of goodness stand, whether uneasily or more easily, on either side.

    I could go into the whole story but I don’t think you’ll be impressed. Your righteousness is your armor. Your healthy sexuality, in contrast to the rest of us, is your armor. Your right opinions are your armor. Your contempt of a woman who would rather be wronged by her child than do wrong to her child is your armor.

    Christian virtue – the goodness of Christ – began where Judaic and Pagan virtue left off, and it confused people then and it confuses people now. American virtue is not the worst in the world, and true, righteous people have been striking their children to teach them right and wrong for millennia, and some of those righteous people wrote things in the Old Testament and the practice made its way into the O.T. Law! I will grant you all these things and more.

    But Christian virtue still begins where American conservative virtue leaves off. And it still leaves righteous people confused. I know. I am in some ways the most prudish person I know. All my temptations are religious in nature.

    Still, the beauty of Christ is in no small measure his unmorality. He is the Image of a God Who sends rain on the just and the unjust. He told men that a scrap of legal paper didn’t make abandoning their wives a good thing, even if the Law gave them that right. He said to bless your enemies, still the hardest thing in the Bible. You can’t turn the Sermon on the Mount into a set of rules; they wouldn’t work in the “real world.” You can only inscribe them on your heart through prayer and let them begin to produce un-necessity, the birth of the Kingdom of Heaven which changes our present reality.

    It’s an insight, a vision. It changes the way you look at everything. What can I do? I can’t communicate this to you. I just know anyone would be better for it. Maybe listen to Barbara instead of me. Maybe read Fr. Stephen’s transcendent comments in this very conversation, which no one responded to because that would have simply ended the whole conflict.

    All the best,
    in Christ’s love,
    Alana

    P.S. That woman you encountered on the other blog is my dear friend. She is not from a fundamentalist background, and after you talked to her, she and I had a conversation defining more clearly what fundamentalism is and is not. We are going to produce an article on that subject eventually. She’s a highly intelligent and spiritual woman who is actively gathering truth and understanding to herself. She’s also in the trenches as a mom of several school-aged children. Really not the kind of person you want to blindly oppose and stand in contempt of.

    However, I understand that conversing on the internet is different than in person, and impressions are more easily wrong, so no hard feelings, all right?

31. 

    AR

    January 10, 2015

    P.P. S Lest we forget, Christ’s only comment on child-rearing are that it is better to drown horrifically than to offend a little one who believes in him. Paul extended this to weaker believers as well.

32. 

    Michael Bauman

    January 10, 2015

    AR your word contempt to describe Christopher is inappropriate.

    And I think you mistake his comments on the Church as well.

    There is at times a rigidity in some people in the Church that can seem like fundamentalism. But he is correct in his assessment that the far greater danger right now is embracing the worldly ideologies.

    For me that includes ideologies from any place within the political spectrum.

33. 

    AR

    January 10, 2015

    I don’t describe Christopher as contemptuous, Michael, as I don’t know his character, but some attitudes expressed here have been contemptuous.

    As for fundamentalism, I know more about what it is and is not than I do about formal theology. I spent a year at a college that was basically centered around the history of fundamentalism. We had talks where old men came in and told stories about the founders of fundamentalism they knew as children. I am equally sympathetic and unsympathetic to the history and the movement.

    In our article, we plan to distinguish between severity, fundamentalism, and fanaticism – it’s basically an exploration of the differing ways in which religion goes wrong on the strict side of things (as opposed to the dissipating side of things.) I agree that when Orthodoxy goes wrong it usually topples into either severity or progressivism. However at this juncture in Orthodox history there’s a huge influx of fundie and evangelical converts and no doubt we’ve brought our fair share of ideology with us. Our challenge as converts is to let go of the rope, walk away from the tug of war and begin climbing the mountain that towers above the muddy plains of this hopeless conflict.

    IMO.

    I didn’t mean to associate Christopher with fundamentalism, just American conservatism.

34. 

    Fr. Stephen Freeman

    January 10, 2015

    AR, et al
    I appreciate the thoughts about American conservatism and Orthodoxy. Orthodoxy is neither conservative nor liberal. The American world is deeply enmeshed in political passions. They have been internalized so deeply that it is frequently difficult for people to discard them, even when they come to God. It is also easy for Orthodoxy to be seen as a bulwark and important tool in the political salvation of our nation. It is not. It is certainly the place of salvation – but we will not play a great role in the salvation of this land, other than to take up the Cross and allow ourselves to be the 10 by whose prayers and presence God spares Sodom. This is our true role.

    I think about politics. I vote. On January 25, myself and members of my parish will join others and March for Life in the nearby city center. Those things matter to me. But the most important thing I can do is to allow myself to be numbered among the 10. And to do that, I must allow myself to be made righteous and to pray.

    We will not make the world a better place (I have written). But by our prayers, and the prayers of our holy fathers, we can allow the world to exist and become the place of salvation. That is all there is in this life. The place of salvation. With that, we should be at peace.

35. 

    AR

    January 10, 2015

    Well said, Father. Conversely, I have been tempted to think that conservatism will save Orthodoxy.

36. 

    Christopher

    January 10, 2015

    Just to reinforce what Michael said – I was not referring to the american politic scene at all with the term “liberal”. I should not have used the term, I was referring to “theology” (while that term is better it also is not quite right). Your friend is Tess no? Hi Tess! I was referring to the underlying current of theological, or more precisely anthropological thought that informs the “average” parishioner (especially the young, say those 35 and under), as well as those in leadership – our lay leaders, priests, bishops, and seminary professionals. These influences inform and influence their minds and hearts as to what a human being *is*, and thus they end up sounding allot like the culture and giving similar answers as the culture does to questions such as: What is the role of women in the Church – should they be ordained? What is the role of the Church in shaping our sexual understanding of ourselves, and by extension our sexual behavior? Is same sex attraction nature, nurture, both, and whatever the answer is does the normative moral Tradition of the last 4000 years stand or does it need revision in the face of modern “understanding”? Are our bishops and seminary professionals being influenced by “fundamentalists” when thinking about and answering these questions, or are they being influenced by the prevailing culture (or is it a mix)?

    For myself, the answer the above question is glaringly obvious: There is no “fundamentalist” influence to speak of in SCOBA Orthodoxy (the one or two examples that can be legitimately cited are the exceptions that prove the rule) , while there is a strong influence of the current culture in the minds of almost all the young parishioners, many (half?) of the older parishioners, some of the clergy, a few of the seminary professionals, and an unknown number of the bishops. When I reveal (or when others such as Fr. Lawrence Farley – who writes on these issues and is an OCA priest in Canada) that I have in part a “liberal protestant” background some with *fundamentalist* backgrounds attribute our observations of these facts to an observational bias – that is we are projecting our own background in the cultural wars, the various battles of “liberal” vs. “conservative” theology in the mainlines that we were necessarily a part of, etc. To which I answer (no doubt with not enough Christian patience and charity): Hogwash. If one can not see the culture for what it is and Orthodoxy in America for what it is, well, I am probably not going to convince you. Perhaps men like Fr. Lawrence and Fr. Stephen (or women like Sister Vassa), or a Fr. Robert Arida his own way will.

    As far as politics and the culture wars, while I had more of an interest up till just a few years ago, I find myself more and more in the position Fr. Stephen describes above. I simply don’t have anyone to vote for normally. Does that make me “conservative” according the definition in the current political scene? I don’t think so. For example, I support the continued dictatorship of the Assad family in Syria. I think that makes me a “traitor” to both the right and left in this country…no doubt my IP address has been flagged by the NSA (that unfortunately is not a joke)…

    As to “contempt” for my relative, or more relevant to this conversation to your definition of “violence” and spanking and your decision to abstain from it, if I have any then it is a sin. I don’t agree, obviously – and perhaps you are offended by my description of this philosophy/position as idealistic (and assuming I hold to a contemptuous connotation), and if so I apologize. I do stand by description of this philosophy as idealistic (with a non contemptuous connotation), because I believe it to be accurate, but that is according to my philosophy and we are obviously at an impasse here so we will have to agree to disagree. No hard feelings on my part! I learn from these sometimes “violent” conversations!!

    I look forward to Tess and your’s essay on “fanaticism”, the dangers of walking to the left or right of the Narrow Way, and how the influx of those with “fundamentalist” backgrounds has or might change the landscape of SCOBA Orthodoxy. I hope you plan on making a distinction between SCOBA Orthodoxy and the “Old Calendarists” and such communions because I think that is important when thinking about his subject. Tess appears to believe that this fanaticism is present within SCOBA leadership (at what level I am not clear), and I believe it is a non problem (and indeed a problem because making a non-problem into a problem is itself a problem). Convince me otherwise!

37. 

    Fr. Stephen Freeman

    January 10, 2015

    Christopher, et al
    I will stop the discussion here (at least a particular direction). It is a policy of the blog never to criticize a priest or bishop. I often tend to broaden that to include the Church or jurisdiction. The stated teaching of the various Synods in SCOBA are quite clear and in no way deviate from the Tradition. In the current cultural climate, the winds will blow and the tides will shift, and I think they will invariably create a flutter of a flag or a bit of flotsam and jetsam. If there were a great movement embracing the culture’s false views, I would probably have to change the policy of the blog.

    As it stands, however, I would prefer that we refrain from drawing our observations on the topic. It’s simply not my purpose here.

38. 

    tess

    January 10, 2015

    Father, may I just clarify that I have never intended to imply “fanaticism within SCOBA leadership”? I very much respect the policy not to criticize priests, bishops, or jurisdictions, especially on the internet (I have known innocent people deeply hurt by such dialogue).

    Thank you for your hospitality!

    (and hello back, Christopher!)

39. 

    AR

    January 10, 2015

    Yeah, me too, I was more spinning theories on the possible influence of people like myself if we fail to be self-aware. I don’t even remember what SCOBA is.

40. 

    pablo

    January 10, 2015

    Fr. Stephen:
    I am impressed by your thoughts on this issue. i am not an Orthodox christian, a pentecostal, but an avid reader of the Fathers and many Orthodox writers. I am blown away by your comments to “Ed”

    “Your last sentence, suggesting I pay attention to my own morality, had a note of anger in it. I’m sorry if that’s true and ask your forgiveness.”

    I think you took the lower place in the argument and I see very little of that, in myself or others, these days, I prefer to win an argument. I think i will dig out my copy of “Brothers..” blow the dust off and try again to read it.
    Thanks for demonstrating true christian character.

    pablo

41. 

    Michael Bauman

    January 16, 2015

    Historically the various jihads of Islam to take over Europe and subject her and her people to Islamic rule have only been stopped by overwhelming military force. Without that all of what we know of as western history would have changed radically and Christendom would have been severely truncated as dominant force.

    I believe the providence of God allowed the armies of the west to turn back the Islamic forces despite the great loss of life and limb on both sides in ways that we consider today excessively brutal.

    Wars and rumors of wars will always be with us and despite the many wars fought in the name of Christ, erroneously or not–Christianity remains the greatest force for what we consider civilization. The Chinese Empire, the Islamic Caliphate and the secularist tyrannies of our own age have either not had the reach or creativity of Christianity or their brutality exceeded our own.

    Christianity is still provoking outrage, resistance and even violent responses as it spreads in the communist version of the Chinese Empire, the Islamic world and in the hearts of those still devoted to the tyranny of secularism.

    Killing and maiming and torturing exact a high price on the body and soul of the survivors as well as on those subject to those things.

    Many of our brothers and sisters in Syria are daily faced with the question: kill or be killed; confess Christ openly and die an unknown martyrs death or see your children slain before your eyes (unknown to this world only).

    These questions and the events that give them rise are deeply troubling to many. The fear is often palpable. There are many in my home parish who have family in Syria and certainly ancestral roots that still run deep.

    Even in the lands that seem to hate us, Christ is calling many to Himself with and without direct human aid. The current President of Egypt addressed a large congregation of Coptic worshippers on the eve of Christmas with His Holiness, the Coptic Pope present calling for tolerance and reconciliation. It is not unknown for Egyptian Muslim men to stand unarmed guard in front of Coptic Churches during this season to help prevent their radical brothers from attempting to massacre the Coptic faithful as the leave Christmas Liturgy.

    Existentially it is not an easy question to even contemplate, let alone answer.

    May our Lord guide us and protect us and save us all.

42. 

    Christopher

    January 19, 2015

    Michael,

    Your last post is well stated I think.

43. 

    Mark Basil

    December 16, 2015

    Evening John;
    it’s odd I am reading this exactly one year from the date you posted it. You likely wont find the reply- or perhaps Fr Stephen replied to you elsewhere.
    In short: Orthodox understand the only image we have of God is Jesus Christ and his love made manifest in dying for the life of the whole world even while we were his enemies.
    This is the only way we read the Old Testament then– through the lens of Christ and his passion. So any image of God that does not line up with the perfect revelation of Christ’s love is a distortion. The distortion may be in myself (usually is) or may be in a misunderstanding and misinterpretation of the biblical text.
    Any reading of God in the old testament that is not reflective of perfect mercy and love in Jesus Christ, is a wrong reading.
    For example when I read of violence against “my enemies” in the psalms, as an Orthodox I can only pray this profitably by understanding that my true enemy is the sinful passions in myself and the demonic forces that act on my brokenness. This is the real meaning of these texts even though it is likely not the meaning the psalmist had in mind.
    This is one example how we Orthodox read the Old Testament through the light of Christ.

    Peace;
    -Mark Basil

44. 

    Karen

    December 16, 2015

    Mark Basil,
    Your observations are right on target here. Sadly, John to whom you address this comment passed away suddenly only several weeks ago as another reader of the blog and friend of John’s reported. Thank you for your post, though. It is s reminder to me to pray for him and his family. He left behind a beloved wife and children.