The Borders of Our Lives

Dirty_gray_city_by_NastyaSunYears ago, as a young seminarian, I wanted to paint icons. I knew nothing about icons, only that I liked them and that they were holy. The vast wealth of books and materials on their meaning and even on the technique of painting them simply did not exist. My knowledge of painting was also non-existent. But rushing in like a fool, I bought materials (none of which were correct) and stretched a large canvas on the inner front door of my apartment. There I began painting an icon of Christ Pantocrator. I had no training and I used no model. I just painted. The effort lasted for better than a month. When I finally reached a point that I called “finished,” I asked a friend, a fellow seminarian who was an artist, to come see my work. He did. And he laughed.

“Do you know who it looks like?” he asked.

“Christ?” I said hopefully.

“No. It looks like you!” And he explained to me something known to artists. If you paint without a model, there is a very good chance that you’ll unconsciously paint yourself. The Icon as “selfie.”

I have often thought about this incident (and written about it previously). There is a spiritual lesson hidden within it. To paint without a model, directly from the imagination, is to paint without boundaries. The only thing that exists without boundaries is my ego, my imagined self. My “icon” of Christ represented the ideal representation of sin: the ego as God.

How do we distinguish the ego from the Other? The only means is to recognize boundaries – that there is a line, a place, a fence, that separates me from the Other. Love does not cross the boundary nor seek to blur it. Love requires a limitation on the self and the projected ego. Your life is not about me.

Boundaries take many forms. They may be the concerns, point-of-view, needs, fears, of another person. Those psychological characteristics do not have to be absolute in order to be boundaries. As the borders of another life, they are not me. I stop where you begin.

Our egos, which I am distinguishing from the true self, have great difficulty with boundaries. The ego is a narrative of our lives that is our own creation. It is the story we tell ourselves about ourselves. It is often how we make sense of things and sort things out. This is a process that is under constant revision. It pushes us to criticize and judge, to weigh and compare. Archm. Meletios Webber describes this process as the working of the mind (in contrast to the heart):

In order to be right about anything, the mind has the need to find someone or something that is wrong. In a sense, the mind is always looking for an enemy (the person who is “wrong”), since without an enemy, the mind is not quite sure of its own identity. When it has an enemy, it is able to be more confident about itself. Since the mind also continually seeks for certainty, which is a by-product of the desire to be right, the process of finding and defining enemies is an ongoing struggle for survival. Declaring enemies is, for the mind, not an unfortunate character flaw, but an essential and necessary task…. Unfortunately, being right is not what people really need, even though a great deal of their lives may be taken up in its pursuit. Defense of the ego is almost always a matter of trying to be right. (In Bread and Water, Wine and Oil)

Strangely, this process creates false boundaries – borders that mark the ego’s own definitions. As such, it is an inherently narcissistic view of the world – the world according to me. In our encounter of true boundaries we find the limits of the self, and therefore begin to find the true self. The nature of the heart (and the true self) does not define itself by its enemies, or the one who is wrong. It is accepting rather than judging. It is quiet rather than noisy. The encounter of its boundaries does not produce the need to probe, define and argue.

The ego’s search for God is deeply frustrated by His silence. The boundaries of silence, darkness and hiddenness with which God most often surrounds Himself are met with frustration, argument, anger or even rejection. The ego frequently substitutes the products of the mind for the truth of God. God as idea is the God who is most suited to the needs of the ego. Such a God will, end the end, be an icon of the ego itself. We inevitably become like that which we worship.

When I was in the years of my serious inquiry into Orthodoxy, I was drawn to the God I could not have. I understood the eucharistic discipline of Orthodoxy and that there were things I was not yet able to eat or drink and places I could not go. My spiritual journey outside of Orthodoxy had presented no boundaries – I could go anywhere, say anything, eat or drink, commune at will. And with every effort of the ego, I was confronted only with my own ego. The Sunday services I conducted as an Anglican priest were the product of massive negotiations (my ego versus the egos of others who wanted something else). Worship was an uncomfortable peace, this week’s exercise in partisan warfare. My last parish had three masses each Sunday, the work of three distinct communities – that often did not like each other.

The modern cultus of seeker-friendly Church is the logical end of a market oriented life. But it can never heal the sickness that most infects us. Jesus did not die in order to rescue the ego: He died in order to put the ego to death. When I converted to Orthodoxy, a friend, nurtured in modern liberalism, opined, “Stephen became Orthodox because he was afraid of change.” In truth, I became Orthodox because I was afraid there would be no change – just more of the same negotiations year after year.

The ego constructs a gray city, populated with negotiated buildings and ever-shifting streets. There can be no value there because there is no reality. Only the borders of our lives reveal who we are. I am not God.

About Fr. Stephen Freeman

Fr. Stephen is a priest of the Orthodox Church in America, Pastor Emeritus of St. Anne Orthodox Church in Oak Ridge, Tennessee. He is also author of Everywhere Present and the Glory to God podcast series.



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Comments

167 responses to “The Borders of Our Lives”

  1. Michael Patrick Avatar
    Michael Patrick

    AR, I agree with Fr. Stephen. I appreciate your candor and insights. Your comments are refreshing and always add something beneficial to the conversation.

  2. Michael Bauman Avatar
    Michael Bauman

    AR & Mary, I think it is fair to say that we Orthodox look a Mary quite differently that do most Roman Catholics (offical teaching notwithstanding). The Immaculate Conception is certainly not a part of the Orthodox understanding (despite comments of Met. Kallistos that seem to suggest the contrary). I have been taught that the theology of the Immaculate Conception is wrong. I, personally, have a difficult time respecting untruth. I can respect the person who holds those ideas though (and I do in your case) because of the frightful amount of my life I spent marrinating in untruth and didn’t know the difference. I have nothing but contempt for those beliefs now, but that does not mean that I am disrespecting myself. I wanted to find the truth. I still do. I say now what I said then, if I am shown that what I believe is untrue, I’ll have to change. Jesus was merciful enough to show that to me and bring me into His Church. I don’t expect to have to change again, just allow myself to be drawn more deeply into Him.

    It is also fair to say that even the mention of Mary as Theotokos is enought to bring out fire-breathing blasphemy from some Protestants.

    One of the best homilies I have ever had the grace to hear was from my Bishop Basil(Essey) on one of the Marian feast day on the humanity of Mary and how important it is for us to remember her humanity because it was through her humanity that Christ was given flesh and His human nature. It was through her human obedience that the sin of Eve was healed (or begun to be). It was through her humanity that the grace of God revealed the hope and promise of true sanctification.

    AR, you are less than half my age, a mere strippling of a youth with less than 20% of the the time I have been in the Church and yet I say wholeheartedly “a little child shall lead them” about your comments in this thread.

    Mary, nothing personal(hard not to take it that way, I know) and no disrespect meant to you as a person.

    Please forgive me if it seems that way.

  3. Christina Avatar
    Christina

    Fr. Stephen- I’ve been reading your lovely blog for quite some time now, but I’ve never worked up the nerve to comment before. Thank you more than I can say for your writing. It was one of several helps that, through God’s grace, pulled me out of the most spiritually dark place I have ever been. It is always a blessing to read your articles and to be reminded of the depth and glory of the Faith. Please pray for me.

    AR- Your ‘mini-thesis’ has been a God-send for me. As I read it, I realize that despite being deeply committed to the Orthodox Faith and having been here for the vast majority of my (admittedly short) life I have been led astray lately by Protestant teachings on this subject. As I read and ponder your thoughts, I can feel my soul healing and running from the fundamentalism I’ve been exposed to, and it’s a beautiful feeling. Thank you from the bottom of my heart, and God bless you!

  4. Brian Avatar
    Brian

    I rather doubt that anyone will ever be able to say what a man is or what a woman is, except perhaps in biological terms. But however influenced by biology, persons are not defined by it. Definitions elude us. Every ‘rule’ (men are this; women are that) must be qualified by exceptions as numerous as the distinctiveness of human persons. We are left only with the icons of glorified humanity in the persons of Christ and the Theotokos.

    We can meditate on the mystery of this glory, but little is explained in a way that satisfies our intellect. We can only wonder that there is nothing He is that He has not given to her, nor is there anything she is that she has not given to Him. He is Man, and she is Woman. He is her Father, her Son, her Brother, and her Bridegroom. She is His mother, His daughter, His sister, and His Bride. There is personal distinctiveness and hierarchy, but above all is the unity and joy of love, a complete and total giving of self free of compulsion, demand, or necessity.

    Perhaps the only path to understanding this mystery is to live it ourselves, however imperfectly, and struggle to become the icon whether in marriage or celibacy.

  5. Michael Bauman Avatar
    Michael Bauman

    Brian. You are right but part of the terror of this age it’s blasphemy and horror is the fact that the majority of folks these days would respond to you words with apathy and dismissal. An icon is merely something on an archaic computer screen after all.

    Perhaps we cannot and should not say what a man is or what a woman is but we must say there is a distinct and irreducible difference and we must say that that the mass confusion of the world about male and female is wrong.

  6. mary benton Avatar
    mary benton

    I’m feeling my comment was a bit misunderstood.

    First, AR, the vast majority of your comments have been very insightful and helpful. Both their content and the manner in which you express them is right on. I have much respect for you and your ideas.

    The point I was hoping to make was that I do not think it serves the Truth to misrepresent a belief you disagree with and in a manner that seems to mock that belief. If I am in error (and I may be), that mode of expression will not draw me closer to the Truth but more likely drive me away.

    To say that Catholics only venerate the Mother of God as special because she is “not really partaking of our nasty feminine tendencies” seemed to me be a clear reference to our belief in the Immaculate Conception – but a very inaccurate and insulting one. If you wish to disagree with a belief, I think it more helpful to either ignore it or present a reasonable basis for disagreement.

    I am a sinner. I myself have been guilty of commenting badly at times – more times than you, I’m sure, AR. I do not doubt that some of my beliefs are incorrect – because I am a person, like all of you, striving to know the unknowable God.

    I apologize if I made too much of an off-hand comment. It simply hit a sore spot with me – and when something hurts me, I am not good at keeping quiet. May God forgive me.

  7. AR Avatar

    Yes, please, Father!

  8. AR Avatar

    Michael Patrick, Michael Bauman, thanks for your kind encouragement.

    Brian, I think your passage beginning “we can only wonder…” and ending “free of compulsion, demand or necessity,” is really beautiful. To me this poetic description does address the true intellect (and not just the reason.)

    As for the impossibility of saying what man and woman is – in a way this is true, as the impossibility of saying what God is, is also true. And yet we have, I guess, verbal fences around the truth – we have the teaching of the Holy Trinity, of Christ’s incarnation, of the energy and essences, and more. If I understand properly, these teachings are the truth as represented to our reason by the spiritual intellect – and our reason must have truth represented to it. Even though the truth cannot be constrained to the limits of our reason, still the truth has a way of appearing to our reason. We seek this appearance and this way.

    And since it is to the reason that our enemy constantly presents untruth, I think we must try to save our reason. We must give it truth, a word from the heart and from the true intellect, to nourish it and bring it into accord with the deeper parts of our being. Many are perishing and going astray through the lack of this. That is why I believe we must try to say what manhood and womanhood are – to call people back to their true God-constituted being – even while we know that what we say will never BE manhood and womanhood.

    There’s something else. Are we assuming that gender is rooted in biology and somehow influences the soul from the body? If that is the case, then yes, that influence will be wavering, changing, inexact, and impossible to pin down – because it doesn’t exist as anything in its own right. Or do we believe that gender is something universal and permanent which is bestowed on the soul and merely represented through biology by extension? If this is true, then it is biological sex which is inexact and impermanent, and we have yet to say definitively what soulish thing it is trying to express.

    I know which I believe, but as I review the comments, not only yours, but Mary’s and some others, I think this is the question that has not been really clarified and decided yet.

    If everyone is still extending me sufferance, I might try to do a little more work on this question, as well as on Mary’s challenge to the idea of a resemblance between masculine energy and God’s energy.

  9. Dino Avatar
    Dino

    Wow, very well said in these last two comments Brian and AR!
    Contemporaries do indeed need quite a bit more of this ‘rationally articulated knowledge’ about the (beyond rationalisation) ‘true knowledge’ of God (and humanity) -that passes all understanding and is bestowed in the hearts of the pure.

  10. EPG Avatar
    EPG

    Brian.

    Your words above drove home to me something about the beauty and strangeness of the Incarnation. Beauty and strangeness that, among other things, should inspire awe, and perhaps a little bit of terror. Something that our Hallmark images of the Nativity don’t even begin to hint at, much less capture. Something in the following words that spoke to this wandering ex-protestant in a way that no other words about the Incarnation have done. Something that is exhilarating, not tame. Something that is vibrant, not pallid.

    “We can only wonder that there is nothing He is that He has not given to her, nor is there anything she is that she has not given to Him. He is Man, and she is Woman. He is her Father, her Son, her Brother, and her Bridegroom. She is His mother, His daughter, His sister, and His Bride.”

    Worth quoting, and pondering. Thank you.

    AR.

    When you wrote this . . .

    And yet we have, I guess, verbal fences around the truth –

    I could not help but think of an image from G.K. Chesterton that spoke of doctrine in similar terms — of doctrine as the fence which gave us a wide and safe place in which to roam. In that way, Chesterton argued, doctrine actually provided freedom — within the “fence,” you are safe — you do not have to be looking over your shoulder all the time. Outside, you are not free, because you are in constant danger.

    Just thought it was kind of a neat image.

  11. mary benton Avatar
    mary benton

    I have comment from last night awaiting moderation. I would like to add an addendum to it.

    First, I know that I am easily hurt because the passions too often rule me. Please pray for me.

    Second, I only want to say that the RC Church reveres Mary because she is the Mother of God, because she said “yes” when given the free choice to bear the Savior in her womb and because she then lived faithfully to Him and the Gospel He preached.

    Let us rejoice in the commonality of our faith as we prepare for the celebration of the Incarnation…

  12. fatherstephen Avatar
    fatherstephen

    On the Immaculate Conception and Catholic Devotion to Mary (from the judge :))

    It is easy, and perhaps too common, to draw inferences about Catholic devotion to Mary based on dogmatic differences with Orthodoxy. Most of these observations are drawn from the world of polemics and therefore tend to be skewed or overwrought. Orthodox and Catholic veneration of Mary certainly differ, though the better part of that difference is hard to characterize in a helpful manner. It would require a mature Catholic who became a mature Orthodox believer to compare within themselves and then share with the rest of us. And that’s a tall order.

    But, I’ll offer these further thoughts. Orthodoxy does not accept the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception, primarily because of its assumptions about original sin, i.e. that original sin is a matter of forensic (legal) guilt and inherited guilt. We have inherited Adam’s guilt. Frankly, this is just one of the problems created by the forensic model of sin. That Mary is “most pure,” is and has always been a long establish part of the faith, within Orthodoxy and Catholicism. To say this in a forensic model, requires something like the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception. This is even more the case in that there is the Augustinian notion that original sin is communicated in the very act of conceiving a child. St. Augustine held that it was impossible to conceive without concupiscence (City of God, 14). If you were to hold to a forensic model, then, I would think, the Immaculate Conception would seem quite important. For me, it simply illustrates the problems inherent in the forensic model.

    But Orthodoxy holds that Mary is “most holy, most pure, most blessed and glorious.” This flows from the understanding that she is “full of grace” from the womb. We hold specifically that she always cooperated with the will and grace of God, and was thus “most pure.” It can also be said, therefore that she was free from any particular sin. We do not hold that she was free from death – which is the common lot of the fallen, human race. And in the mind of the fathers, who dogmatized primarily in ontological terms (in terms of actual being and the nature of being), death was and is the primary issue, both in the fall and in the resurrection. Mary died. (Feast of the Dormition). We believe that Christ took her, soul and body into heaven (resurrection) sometime within the first 3 days of her death. Christ did not allow His most pure mother to suffer corruption here on earth but took her to be with Him in the fullness of His resurrected life (something that will be done for all of us at the Last Day).

    On a devotional level, it is important to consider that the absence of an absence is an odd thing, and not the object of devotion. What I mean by this is that immaculate conception (in forensic terms) argues that Mary did not have something that the rest of us have – the forensic guilt of Adam’s sin. There’s no virtue in this, nothing to be honored. This is something of the Orthodox complaint about the doctrine. Particularly the complaint that the Immaculate Conception diminishes Mary.

    Rather, the phrase “most pure,” gives genuine content to devotion. It is not an absence, but a presence. She is “most pure,” not because of what she doesn’t have (Adam’s guilt), but because of what she has through her cooperation with the grace of God (purity). No matter how much I cooperate with the grace of God, my conception was and always will be marked by concupiscence. I suppose I should be grateful that God removes the stain of my parents’ passion by the waters of baptism – but it’s all extrinsic, having nothing to do with me. In that sense, I personally think of it as pious nonsense. It’s purely theoretical – off planet. It’s one of my most common complaints about the entire forensic scheme of salvation which I believe distorts the faith at numerous turns.

    But, the purity of the most holy Virgin, this I can have a share in, inasmuch as it is something that exists because she cooperated with the grace given to her. I will not be “most pure,” but I can be pure to some measure, and with every moment’s cooperation with grace, I participate in that same purity. It is not something that makes her unlike me, but something which we share in communion, in grace.

    If there is a great distinction to be made between Orthodox and Catholic devotion, it would probably have to be traced to the presence of the forensic model within Catholicism (to a greater or lesser degree), and its absence in Orthodoxy (to a greater or lesser degree). I confess to being very committed to resisting the forensic model wherever it occurs because of its often unforeseen consequences over the long term.

    That said, we have to recognize that all of this is a fairly hefty theological analysis, and that believers rarely pray in such a manner. Thus, the question for me would be, “To what extent does the forensic metaphor inform the devotion of the faithful?” And that would depend on many things. I’m sure that some Roman Catholics are permeated with it, while others not so much. I am sure that some Orthodox have very little to do with it, while others have been greatly effected by it. I occasionally meet Orthodox priests who speak and write from a very strong forensic model – I think they are wrong and in need of correction. I think it belongs to what is called the “Western Captivity” of the Church – that it is foreign to Orthodoxy and an important from other more dominant cultures.

    Again, I would urge readers to consider their lives within the metaphor (and reality) of union and communion. God became what we are that we might become what He is. We do not have a legal problem – we have a problem within our very being and existence. Or as I’ve said, “Christ did not come to make bad men good, He came to make dead men live.” The Theotokos and our devotion to her, rightly belong within this communion of salvation that we have from God. We have a devotion to her for who and what she is, and that we have a share in that reality. We are what she was and we shall be what she is.

  13. mary benton Avatar
    mary benton

    Fr. Stephen,

    I fully agree with you regarding the forensic model and do not feel comfortable with all of the RC original sin arguments regarding Mary. I consider them (and many theological arguments) to be unnecessary to my belief.

    For me, the most compelling argument for the Immaculate Conception (not that I am trying to make an argument here), is the series of appearances to 14 year old Bernadette at Lourdes where the beautiful Woman, when asked her name, said “I am the Immaculate Conception.” It was as though giving her name, much more so than elucidating on what occurred when her parents conceived her. Others have testified that Bernadette never heard this term before, a belief of that the RC church had proclaimed just 4 years earlier. Bernadette was a a young peasant girl coming from an impoverished background and was not up on theology. Some of the miracles said to occur at Lourdes are so dramatic, e.g. visible facial cancers disappearing over night, that it leads me to believe (as well does the RC church) that Bernadette’s experience was truly mystical. At the time it occurred though, some wanted to put in Bernadette in an insane asylum.

    There is much that is mystery and it often saddens me that my RC church needs to try to define everything in theological detail. We are better served, I believe, by standing in awe before the greatness of our God, and accepting that His mysteries far exceed our understanding.

  14. Michael Patrick Avatar
    Michael Patrick

    Mary Benton,

    I’m a former RC and convert to Orthodoxy 18yrs ago. From a young age my father tried with little success to encourage me in the faith by appealing to Lourdes, stigmata, the shroud of Turin and other miraculous phenomena. I always believed God could do anything He wanted, but I could never bring myself to appreciate these things the way he did.

    I would not deny that something may be at work in them. Perhaps they come from God and benefit others mightily. I just don’t have the equipment to sort them out and since they don’t affect my faith, they remain merely a curious puzzle.

    Now that I’m Orthodox, though, I’ve become more suspicious because I can’t even trust my own “visions”. To know that I am now under the loving gaze of God and and that I will see Him more fully in the ripeness of time is enough.

    My father died at 97 with a devotion still strongly linked to appearances. May his memory be eternal.

  15. Michael Bauman Avatar
    Michael Bauman

    I think there is always a temptation to make more of our experience than we ought. The faith is fundamentally experiential in nature (our continuing encounter with the incarnate living God in the fullness of our being) but that does not mean it should be phenomenological as well.

  16. marybenton Avatar
    marybenton

    I am simply sharing – not trying to persuade. I am not highly into some of the things that your father was either, Michael Patrick, (though not to denigrate them – who am I to judge?).

    I believe that faith that is tied too extremely to miraculous experience is a faith that may not hold up well – and that is a concern that I have about cult-like practices that I see within some facets of the larger RC church.

    On the other hand, for those deeply rooted in relationship with God, the mystical experiences of others, whether St. Bernadette’s or St. Silouan’s, can serve to deepen and enrich our faith. (BTW, I’m reading St. Silouan the Athonite. Excellent book.)

  17. Andrew Avatar
    Andrew

    Michael Patrick & Mary Benton,

    The only aim of the Christian life is to attain “likeness” to the “image”. When divine grace illuminates the human will it is purified. After purification, if a person guards him or herself from defilement by sin, he or she becomes “light-producing, lightning-producing, light-giving and fire-bearing.” –Hierotheos Nafpaktos

    Isn’t that marvelous?

    A nun said to Hierotheos Nafpaktos that in our time a “hot anti-hesychastic wind” is blowing which is burning everything. This is the contemporary reality says Hierotheos Nafpaktos. The atmosphere prevailing today is rather the atmosphere of Barlaam and not that of St. Gregory Palamas.

    “Man’s cure is in fact purification of the nous,heart, and image, the restoration of the nous to its primordial and original beauty, and something more: his communion with God. When he becomes a temple of the Holy Spirit, we say that the cure has succeeded”.–Hierotheos Nafpaktos.

  18. Jane Avatar
    Jane

    (((AR)))

    I feel so bad that I haven’t been back yet to respond to your very kind and very much to the point longer reply to my question. I hadn’t seen it until today. I think the momentary lull in the conversation here led me to conclude it was over, so between one thing and another I let a few days pass before I returned to this, my favorite blog. 🙂

    Anyway, much of what you wrote did get rather to the heart of the issues, for me. I would like to respond more but my ideas may have to percolate a day or so before I can put them into words to my satisfaction. Also I am thinking, if we could continue part of this conversation privately that might be easier, if you are willing. Could we email?

  19. AR Avatar

    Oh, that’s all right, Jane. It took me a while, too, as you can see. Yes, if you want to keep talking privately, why don’t you leave a comment on my blog and when I see your email address I’ll send you mine? That way neither of us has to post ours publicly and make ourselves a target for spam. Just click on my initials and you should pop right through. Talk to you later!

  20. Dino Avatar
    Dino

    Mary,
    you unwittingly brought up another very important difference between RC and Orthodoxy (by mentioning St Bernadette next to St Silouan):
    In RC the use of the imagination, whether stochastically/theologically or mystically is actually allowed/used.
    In Orthdox hesychasm, it is never permitted – the greatest vigilance is exercised against it, as it is seen as a gateway to potential delusion.

  21. Dino Avatar
    Dino

    That’s why we aren’t comfortable having to use the word ‘contemplation’ instead of ‘Theoria’ in English

  22. Brian Avatar
    Brian

    Michael,

    You are correct, of course. However, we have no greater convincing language (that I know of) than the fullness of life that Christ imparts to us.

    No articulation would prove adequate, for it would fall on ears equally as deaf. It is akin to attempting to prove the existence of God. Most people know intuitively that God exists – just as they know intuitively that sexual distinctions have meaning. But no argument is sufficient for those who will not believe. The primary (although not exclusive) audience for an iconic understanding of our humanity is Christian, those who ‘know’ intuitively that something isn’t quite right about the blurring of sexual distinctions but who are unaware of the root of their intuition and thus easily fall prey to the lies of the Enemy who relishes in marring the image of God. It can even become for them a means of conversion to the fullness of the Orthodox Faith. Meanwhile we must be the icon. I fail in this all the time (just ask my wife!). Yet we must struggle toward the image nevertheless if we are to participate in the salvation of the world.

    AR,

    You are also right about the “true intellect.” It was a poor choice of words on my part. Please don’t take my comments as dismissive of the attempt “to say what manhood and womanhood are – to call people back to their true God-constituted being.” It is a noble effort.

    “In the image of God created He him; male and female created He them.”

    Whether the difference between male and female is biological, ontological, existential, or all three I wouldn’t dare say. I simply do not know. But it does appear that it is precisely as a woman that the ever-blessed and most pure Virgin Mary is glorified for believing and offering her humanity to the Son of God who is incarnate as a Man.

    Worthy of pondering is the fact that a man giving birth would be equally as miraculous as a Virgin giving birth. Yet God chose a woman – not a man – to fulfill what is according to her nature AS A WOMAN, thus honoring the Woman above all creation. This would seem to indicate that the distinctions of our created nature as male and female are more than temporal. They were in the beginning (“Have ye not read that He which made them at the beginning made them male and female…?”). Given all that we know of salvation in Christ, it is difficult to imagine that these distinctions our creation (which are, like all creation, “very good”) would be abolished. Would it not be more accurate to say that they are fulfilled?

  23. Eleftheria Avatar
    Eleftheria

    Blessings to all,

    Wonderful article, exquisite comments.
    Regarding Brian’s response to AR, “Yet God chose a woman – not a man – “…He chose BOTH. Forgive my simplistic approach…
    The first man, Adam, gave birth, if you will, to Eve – of course, through the hand of God. Shortly thereafter, it all went downhill because they ate of the fruit of the forbidden tree. Eve was specifically promised that in time, one of her children would save them – and the whole world.

    Centuries later, Mary, consecrated in the temple from the age of 3, wherein she spent her time in prayer and contemplation, agreed to give birth – without a man, but through the Holy Spirit – to THE MAN, Her Son – Her Lord and ours, Her Father and ours.

    God chose both – male and female – and saved us all, through both. Glory to His Name!

    A blessed Nativity fast and Christmas to all!

  24. drewster2000 Avatar
    drewster2000

    Fr. Stephen,

    Not to change the subject; I just wanted to quickly comment that this post about borders of self vs. ego is one of the most insightful and astounding revelations I have had for awhile. Thanks once again for sharing your wisdom.

    AR,

    What can I say that hasn’t been said already. Your words – wise as serpents yet gentle as doves – command respect.

  25. AR Avatar

    Re: Dino Dec 3 5:19

    You said: “Contemporaries do indeed need quite a bit more of this ‘rationally articulated knowledge’ about the (beyond rationalisation) ‘true knowledge’ of God (and humanity) -that passes all understanding and is bestowed in the hearts of the pure.”

    I think my feeling about this is best summed up by Lossky. He says, “…the teaching of the Church would have no hold on souls if it did not in some degree express an inner experience of the truth, granted in different measure to each one of the faithful.”

    This is how I look at my fellow Church members. Each one of them has the image of Christ stamped in their hearts. They already judge everything they encounter by its degree of agreement with the beauty of this image. They do this internally, naturally, and reflexively. What doesn’t agree, they experience with distaste.

    If I say something and it manages to represent the truth more or less accurately, such a person responds positively – not because I’m pure and have brought something to them which they formerly lacked, but because they already knew this thing I said. Their former soreness, which reading my words has relieved, was caused by the stress of an inner contradiction between what they felt to be true and the inadequate or misleading representation of the truth that they had been forced to work with up to that point. By resolving this contradiction, the words I write relieve their inner stress.

    Thus, it is the reader’s own purity of heart that is at work in successfully communicating truth – what I as a writer bring is merely the skill of articulating the feeling we all share. Often I find myself articulating something I previously didn’t know, as I “pick it up” from the person I’m talking to. Then they say, “Yes, that’s what I meant!” This ability to articulate, while it depends on God’s kindness like any skill, I believe to be a normal human skill which I have cultivated by writing formal poetry for twenty years. Obviously sin has the potential to damage this sort of thing but where sin abounds, God’s grace abounds even more. This is what happens when people are still imperfect but are still seeking God. Christ doesn’t scorn to dwell among us and renew us daily. Even though we are not experiencing the fullness of what the perfect experience, if we did suddenly experience it, we would recognize it for we have tasted it already.

    Witness the reaction of those who don’t “get it.” If they don’t start out seeing it, they won’t be persuaded except by their own private journey of experience.

  26. mary benton Avatar
    mary benton

    Dino –

    You wrote on 12/3:

    “Mary,
    you unwittingly brought up another very important difference between RC and Orthodoxy (by mentioning St Bernadette next to St Silouan): In RC the use of the imagination, whether stochastically/theologically or mystically is actually allowed/used. In Orthdox hesychasm, it is never permitted – the greatest vigilance is exercised against it, as it is seen as a gateway to potential delusion.”

    If you should happened to see this comment, I would appreciate if you could share what you mean by “imagination”, since apparently you are using it in a way that differs from its common secular usage.

    My understanding (limited as it is) is that St. Silouan experienced of vision of Christ early in life – something he did not seek but was life-changing; and that St. Bernadette experience of vision of Mary early in life – something that she did not seek but was life-changing. Both went on to live monastic lives.

    I realized that Bernadette was not Orthodox; if you simply do not accept her experience as legitimate, I can understand that as you may not be interested in the study of RC saints. But I am puzzled by the reference to “imagination” and would like to learn more. Thanks.

  27. Dino Avatar
    Dino

    Hi Mary,
    I really do not know enough and am in no position to speak with authority on the matter at all.
    I will try to demonstrate what we mean by the lack of vigilance against the use of imagination (that is evident in RC saints and not in Orthodox hesychasm) by a comparison of the daily routine of two Saints that the Elder Aimilianos -former abbot of Simonopetra and a contemporary authentic authority on hesychasm – has used before when talking on the matter.
    Saint Nilus the Younger (of Calabria) and St Teresa of Ávila.
    The former (Nilus) would only ever permit the use of imagination in contemplation of the greatness of God’s creation when he had his daily break. Only then! never even allowing the slightest distraction or voluntary contemplation (as far as he could) at times of prayer, when he was simply ‘under the gaze of the Lord’. His ascetic prayer would seem extremely dry in the West (until God would visit him that is) – as in St Silouan…
    The later would allow herself free use of contemplation, especially of the passion of Christ, and if she escaped delusion from the adversary due to her humility and fervent love, she nevertheless trod a more colourful ascetic path of great danger – as did St Bernadette of Lourdes.
    You might come across some Orhtodox ascetics that do allow this contemplative use of the imagination at the beginning of their prayer rule, however, it still considered dangerous and they obviously only use it before the deep prayer of their prayer rule – as a warm-up.
    In the West we do not find this level of guarding against this type of thing. In the East we go so far as saying what Saint Macarius the Great (4th century) said, (off the top of my head) :
    “we must be so guarded against our imaginings that even if Christ comes to the soul at night, the soul must pay no attention, ignoring the apparition as if it is the adversary appearing as an angel of light. The Lord always has ways of overcoming this vigilance, and is highly honoured that the soul is so devoted to Him. Because if a groom came to his bride in the middle of the night, as another lover would, and she spurned him, thinking he is someone else , he would be highly honoured by this proof that she is never going to become an adulteress…”

  28. Dino Avatar
    Dino

    Also remember that St Silouan suffered from demons both before and after his first vision, he only learnt the ultimate way to defeat them once he was given the word to ‘Keep his mind in Hell and despair not’. That vigilant humility is like an extreme version of what Saint Macarius of Egypt advised above…

  29. mary benton Avatar
    mary benton

    Dino –

    Thanks for your reply, though I’m afraid I don’t feel much clearer on the subject. Perhaps it is partly an issue of semantics?

    For example, the term “contemplation” in RC tradition would not seem to use the imagination at all, at least as I understand it. Contemplation is considered a gift from God, an experience of mystical union, if you will, typically experienced in a deeply quiet and image-less state. It is not something that one can create by one’s own efforts.

    However, we can engage in contemplative practice which, in my reading of it, is very similar to the “watchfulness” described in “Christ the Eternal Tao” (which I am currently reading). Again, there is no active use of the imagination (as I use the word imagination) but neither does one fight with the thoughts/images that occur – they are noticed and pass from awareness. The practice helps us to enter more deeply into prayer of the heart.

    I was curious about your characterization of Bernadette of Lourdes as someone who used imagination. Are you saying that someone who experiences visions is using “imagination”, if they have not refused to pay attention to the vision (because it may the adversary in disguise)?

    I tend to use the word “imagination” in common parlance, when talking about a semi-voluntary process of conjuring up images – as in daydreaming, creating art, etc. which is certainly a different meaning.

    While I can understand how following the instructions given by the one envisioned (as Bernadette did in her vision of Mary) could be considered dangerous – in the event it wasn’t really Mary appearing to her – it would also seem dangerous to ignore the instructions in case it WAS Mary appearing to her. That is, once you are in the position of seeing visions, you are in a tough spot!

    Bernadette experienced her visions as a young peasant girl who had no training or preparation for such things. She also suffered for it, as she was not believed for some time – and then did not want all of the attention forced on her once she was believed.

    In Catholic tradition, there have been a number reported experiences of the Virgin appearing to children or others unsophisticated with regard to the sort of discussion we are having here. Generally they do not have it easy after having these experiences in that the Church strives to guard against “imagination” (i.e. something made up by a person) becoming cause for inappropriate and widespread devotion.

    I am certainly no authority on any of this either but appreciate any comments of clarification. Fr. Stephen, could you shed some light?

  30. fatherstephen Avatar
    fatherstephen

    Mary Benton,
    There is certainly a form of contemplative prayer within RC practice that is quite similar to that within Orthodoxy. Perhaps a better example of imagination in RC usage is in the Ignatian Method – which is pretty much dominated by the use of the imagination. There are also widespread practices, not grounded within any of the more traditional practices, of things like “guided mediation,” etc. that would never occur in Orthodoxy.

    I would not have described St. Bernadette as an example of imagination. Orthodoxy, in contrast to Rome, has an extreme caution about visions, dreams, etc. And the kind of “messaging” that has been common in many RC appearances really has almost no counterpart in Orthodoxy. That such things take place is neither here nor there – it’s the official approval given them that is extremely troubling from an Orthodox point of view. You yourself cited St. Bernadette’s vision in support of the Immaculate Conception. Orthodoxy finds this very troubling. Such visions are impossible to actually judge – even by a Pope – unless the Pope is functioning like a Mormon Prophet.

    Saints have visions – their recorded lives are filled with them. But that’s where Orthodoxy leaves them. Some put more stock in such things than others. But giving them anything more than a general interest is spiritually dangerous. An example for me would be the improper weight given to the idea of “toll houses” by some Orthodox – something that largely has its foundation in the vision of a nun. It has absolutely no dogmatic foundation and should never be treated as though it does. It is a pious idea – nothing more, nothing less. If it is helpful for someone, fine. I do not find it at all helpful.

    I had opportunity to visit several times in Conyers, GA, where a local woman was having visions of the Virgin. The crowds grew for a long time – tens of thousands once a month. Frankly, what I saw was charismatic delusional nonsense – of the worst sort. There were many devout, well-meaning people. It is sort of the Catholic version of Protestant end-time stuff. Full of prophecy and messages, warnings and the like. It is a cult of the Virgin that is very disturbing from an Orthodox perspective. These things are not only wholly lacking in sobriety – they encourage the exact opposite. A spiritual life that is not marked by sobriety is a dangerous thing. Far more likely to do harm than good.

    It’s not that there are not plenty of examples of sobriety and contemplation within Rome. It’s the toleration, and occasional promotion of the other that is worrisome. In Orthodoxy, we’re more likely to have crowds turn out for a weeping icon. But at least the icon doesn’t talk and give private revelations. The faithful come, venerate the icon, and then often stand for hours for the sober prayers of an Akathist or Paraklesis.

    Rome is a very big tent. Some things in the tent look very Orthodox. But the Orthodox would say, “You’re tent’s too big.”

  31. Dino Avatar
    Dino

    Mary,
    I did use the term contemplation (regarding St Nilus’ ‘natural contemplation of creation’ when he had his daily ‘break’) as something of a more relaxed reflection, allowing for “less strictness” (in the highly vigilant and sober guard against the use of any imagination).
    In Orthodoxy this is considered a ‘lower’ state. I have seen this described as the highest state in the West though…
    It is not 100% imagination free.

    The term ‘contemplation’ is indeed also used in many English translations for the patristic term ‘Theoria’. That’s a little tricky, as in that context it denotes a type of contemplation of God’s uncreated glory -ultimately-, arrived at through a completely imageless and most sober route.
    I cannot speak on the Catholic Saints with these experiences, especially since the classic Orthodox notion of accountability to a discerning spiritual Father is not usually found in them. They could be legitimate, but they also often resemble the “deluded charismatics” (as Father Stephen explained) that we must guard against. They sometimes have so many similarities that it rings alarm bells in my heart. This can also happen when one meets a deluded Orthodox ascetic on Athos, no doubt; however, authenticity has a very different spiritual “fragrance”. And a sober believer eventually acquires at least a basic discernment in the matter – yet still might not rely on his own astute discernment until he ‘reports’ to his Father in Christ.

  32. mary benton Avatar
    mary benton

    Thank you, Fr. Stephen (& Dino) for your helpful reflections.

    Please note that I am not making these comments to try to argue for Immaculate Conception or Catholic saints. I respect that there are differences. My interest is in the broader questions and how Orthodoxy views them.

    What I have sometimes noticed is that the children and other simple folk who have reported visions of Mary (that have been accepted by the RC church) were often themselves very humble people with a true spiritual “fragrance” of authenticity.

    What has sometimes followed their experiences is more troubling and at times cult-like. I have generally been more skeptical of these followings than of the initial experiences. Accounts of some of the early miracles reported at Lourdes are quite credible and moving.

    Oddly, the RC church, in trying to prevent “delusion”, generally launches intense investigations of the more credible experiences of this type. This leads to them becoming widely known, creating the dangers cited. While for some people, knowledge of these experiences strengthen a healthy faith, for others, there is a notable lack of “sobriety” which is indeed disturbing.

    BTW – Dino – many RC saints, including St. Teresa of Avila, have had spiritual directors. That’s not to say, however, that we RC couldn’t benefit from more wide spread use of this practice.

  33. Dino Avatar
    Dino

    Mary,
    That’s an intriguing point indeed (concerning humble children)…
    Concerning children’s visions which are authentic, yet subsequently yield troublesome fruit, my thoughts are that they (especially) need a context of sobriety – even more so. A ‘vision’ is always a dangerous thing in one sense – even if it is clearly authentic.

  34. Albert Avatar
    Albert

    It troubles me to think the attraction between a man and a woman, and its likely result (in consecrated marriage of course) I. E., physical and emotional near ecstasy, might be somehow “ungodlike” – – but that seems to be an indirect theme running through many of the comments about Jesus’s mother. She was pure from the beginning and she did not have sexual intercourse. Really? Then how could she have given birth to a full human being? Through God’s power, we say. But God thought up the whole sexual attraction/reproduction activity, and it was good, right? Or are we Orthodox believers supposed to accept that without a first sin there would be no sexual attraction and no reproduction of the species that way? No nocturnal emissions for adolescent boys? No painful menstrual periods for girls? Haven’t you all wondered about this. I have, often (I’m almost embarrassed to say)

    And I confess that I stray into risky territory when I ask myself if Jesus ever had an erection. The problem for me is, how could he have been fully human if he didn’t experience what every other man experiences?

    And why is it important that Mary never had sex? Did the angel messenger tell her that the baby she would bare is God? If so, how could she deal with her child as a real mother would? Obviously relations between sexes have been horribly distorted and abused throughout history, but that doesn’t make sex itself evil, polluted, or somehow inferior to other ways of expressing love. Mary is a mother. Mothers know about the body. They love nursing, cuddling, bathing, kissing, feeding, dressing their children. They are not ashamed of the conception and birth process, no matter how puzzling or painful it turns out to be.

    I see a great contradiction between the beauty and reverence in icons and what seems a complete denial of Mary’s personhood through the use of the formal Greek word theotokos (preceded always by an objectifying article,”the”) in liturgies and prayers that are said in the language of the people. Why shouldn’t we be encouraged to approach her as a person and call her by name? The Jesus prayer is probably the one most often recommended because, I think, we want to keep reminding ourselves of the mystery of the Incarnation, God becoming a human person without losing any Divinity.

    I fear that some of the inferior position of women, both perceived and real, and even more of the male insensitive, aggressive, sometimes brutal and murderous treatment of women could be traced to a theoretical/theological implied teaching about gender in which sex is a less than human (less than good) activity, one that is very far removed from God and God’s plan for us.

    Not meaning to offend. I pray as an Orthodox Christian, but that doesn’t keep me from wondering.

  35. fatherstephen Avatar
    fatherstephen

    Albert,
    There is so much to say here. It seems to me that you’ve confused “normal” and “good.” What might be normal in our world (sex) is certainly a gift of God, but not as we know it. Everything in our lives, including that which is best, is also distorted. Sex, even in the context of a blessed, consecrated marriage, has many layers of experience. We distort and misuse things. The fact that Christ was born of a Virgin is not because sex would have been bad (Mary herself was “natural” offspring of Joachim and Anna). Rather, it is because Christ is God and man. Were there to be two humans involved (natural procreation), then God would have had to intervene in destroy a human life, and replace it with His own hybrid self, or something like that.

    As it is, He “takes flesh” of the Virgin and is conceived in Her womb. Christ is fully God and fully man. The mystery of Christ’s conception and birth is not that it was “sexless” (though it was), but that God makes no disturbance of the world in becoming man – He does no violence. There is no judgment or shame attached to conception or birth in Orthodoxy.

    I understand your point as well about her personhood. We do call her by name as well as by title.

    I am certain that the demeaning of women is in no way related to the exaltation of Mary. I think it is quite the opposite. Muslims do not rightly honor Mary as the Mother of God. And they often demean women in a manner beyond anything in Western civilization. Women are often mistreated in many non-Christian places. Indeed, it is only within the Christian world (or places that are the inheritors of Christian culture) that women were given the vote and decent pay and education. They’re still waiting for a lot of that elsewhere.

    But the modernist feminist push is no “pro-woman” either. It often simply pushes them into false stereotypes of human happiness, demeaning many things that women should enjoy. I do not agree that Orthodoxy demeans women in any way.

  36. mary benton Avatar
    mary benton

    Since Albert asked some “interesting” questions, may I ask a couple? Nothing meant to offend or argue as I am a believer. Yet they mystify me.

    One is: what would be the genetic make up of Jesus? To be a male, he needed to have a “Y” chromosome and therefore be genetically different from Mary. I realize that there can be no determination of this (and that God could do whatever He wanted in this regard), but it is one of those puzzling things. Would God make use of the genetics of a known individual, such as Joseph, or would He create something unique? Is there any teaching on this beyond speculation?

    I have also wondered about the “perpetual virginity” of Mary and what our basis is for holding this belief (I believe it is a common belief of both Orthodoxy and RC.) From where does this belief originate? It would have been a highly unusual thing for a young Jewish couple to abstain throughout their marriage.

    There will always be mystery and these questions do not stop me from believing – so in that sense, I consider them “unnecessary questions” in some sense. However, sometimes people more knowledgeable than me can deep my understanding with thoughtful replies. Thanks.

  37. fatherstephen Avatar
    fatherstephen

    Mary,
    I have no clue on the genetics thing and won’t speculate.

    The perpetual virginity of Mary, universally accepted in the early Church, is rooted in primitive tradition. I’m not sure of an origin other than knowledge of the facts. But, Mary and Joseph were not a young couple. Joseph was an older widower who married Mary who was an orphan by then.

    Since Joseph believed the word of the angel that Mary was mother of the Messiah by the Holy Spirit, every known sense of Jewish piety would mean that he would not have even considered touching her. Her womb was holy. I’m repeatedly struck by the fact that modern people (no offense in this comment) think that having sex with something (and someone) who has been made utterly holy would be normal and acceptable. Sex seems to triumph over everything. I simply think you’ve not thought about this in this way Mary.

    Orthodoxy has a very keen sense that the “Holy” still has some sense of what is forbidden. We are invited into it (such as the priest in the altar), but under careful direction, etc. And this is for our sake, not to protect the holy.

    If it was forbidden to even touch the Ark of the Covenant – how would a pious man dare to have sex with the true Ark (Mary)? God would never have “borrowed” another man’s wife, or shared such a union. Joseph is “married” to Mary in name only. She belonged to God.

  38. Michael Bauman Avatar
    Michael Bauman

    Joseph was the protector. Clearly seen in the icon of the Nativity is Joseph beset by the evil one. Joseph received the direction on what to do to protect the child and his mother.

    This element of manhood is something that the modern world denigrates. Even when it is allowed it is only so in violent ways such as soldiering and police work. Even there, women are now.

    Protect, provide, procreate. Even the procreation was not simply about the couple but in the context of a holy community.

    The sense of the holy breaks down as the sense of community breaks down.

  39. Dino Avatar
    Dino

    Mary,
    It does not really interest me in this modern analytical way, however, I do recall now that I once heard somewhere that analysis of the blood remnants on the Cross was a shocking find -or rather an expected result- to find only 24 chromosomes… (We all have 46 chromosomes, unless we have Downs Syndrome) Each parent supplies 23 chromosomes to every new infant. Jesus had 23 from His mother, and somehow had a single Y as well, which made Him a male.
    I am sure there is talk on this somewhere in the net!

  40. Dino Avatar
    Dino

    Mary,
    I found this about an analysis of blood remnants on the Cross etc online (in a typical western analytical approach):

    We tested it to make sure it was blood. It is unique blood. I will quickly state this, I know that there are some doctors here, and nurses, and people who are familiar with blood. All of us have 46 chromosomes, unless we have Downs Syndrome. Christ had 24. Each parent supplies 23 chromosomes to a new infant. Christ got 23 from His mother, He got one from His Father, and it was a Y, which made Him a male. He got it not from an earthly Father, or He would have had 46 like the rest of us.”

  41. Dino Avatar
    Dino

    Mary,
    I have some trouble commenting so three similar comments might appear….
    There was a scientific analysis of blood remnants found on the Cross -typical of the methods that seem to inspire western thought more than the experience of the glorified saints, might I add- and they showed blood with only 24 chromosomes rather than 46, which is normal for everyone…

  42. fatherstephen Avatar
    fatherstephen

    Dino,
    The chromosome blood test viz. Christ is bogus. I don’t know where it came from. It’s pious, but not true.

  43. mary benton Avatar
    mary benton

    Father Stephen,

    Thank you for your response.

    Please understand that I do not subscribe to the “Sex seems to triumph over everything” mentality. I was interested in this question more because of the Jewish spiritual/cultural value that marrying and begetting children was highly valued at that time (from my understanding) and therefore I was curious at why Mary and Joseph would have deviated from living the tradition that would have seemed normal to them.

    Your explanation makes complete sense. And you are correct, I had not thought of it that way. I appreciate the insights and knowledge you share with me. That is how I learn.

    (The genetics question was an oddball question. One of those curiosity issues better left alone, I agree. I apologize for posting it.)

  44. mary benton Avatar
    mary benton

    Sometimes I do not sort out well the questions that are based on mere curiosity vs. those that have worthy content.

    The genetics question was kind of a stupid question, I think, in retrospect, because it tries to analyze Mystery from scientific standard. It is not that I think Mystery cannot stand up to science – it far exceeds it – the fault is more in thinking that I should be able to understand all of Mystery.

    Questions aimed at understanding better a Church teaching, e.g. perpetual virginity of Mary, is a far more worthy inquiry.

    However, I feel some compassion for Albert’s earlier questionings. While certainly our world has greatly distorted the sacred gift of sexuality, some of us were raised to believe that sex was inherently dirty or unholy. Hence, as a backlash, there may be a tendency to question teachings that would seem to support this (e.g. perpetual virginity of Mary) though, in actuality, that is not the basis of the teaching – as explained in Fr. Stephen’s response.

  45. Dino Avatar
    Dino

    The chromosome archaeological findings – bogus or not- are of little interest to an Orthodox. There were people who saw Christ in the flesh and betrayed him…
    Only the experience of the glorified Saints convinces. Seeing Christ in the Holy Spirit -as Saint Silouan, mentioned above, did (and bore the fruit of this encounter for the rest of his years)- is infinitely more substantial…

    Albert‘s question concerning the physical experience of our Lord in the flesh and the possibility of any dispassionate, testosterone fuelled physical movements, is very clearly explained in the experience of the Saints who were filled with the Uncreated Grace.
    Saint Symeon the new theologian for instance, or Saint Savas the fool for Christ, experienced the change through Grace in the body that completely transforms physicality, beyond anything we can imagine.
    Saint Silouan also had the heavenly experience of joy, strength and freedom from tiredness and sexual stirrings of any sort for a time after his first encounter with the Lord.
    Saint Nilus the New (mentioned above) struggled for years to be freed from any nocturnal (lust-free) emissions -having been deeply intrigued by reading that this was actually possible. He never managed this while struggling with extreme fasting (even no water for a very very long time)…
    However, after he was deeply humbled to the end and had an encounter with the Lord who came to console him – as with Saint Silouan’s encounter- he was granted this odd ‘proof’ of permanent transformation too.
    Elder Joseph the Hesychast was granted a purity similar to that ‘of the Mother of God’ after more than eight years of the most incredible warfare with the flesh. This would obviously serve as a verifiable proof -for him- that it is possible -at last- to know experientially what it is like to live without differentiating between man or woman; of what it is to have no sexual stirrings of any sort whatsoever; of how God’s grace is capable of affecting even our bodies; of what it means to live and move in Grace while still on earth – a paradisial, (free from the fall) mode of existence to a certain degree.

    This would answer your question Albert (concerning Christ in the flesh) in a manner that is incontestably verifiable (for those who have had this experience -and those who believe in them too) yet not literally /reasonably confirmable in the way that the secular world demands…

  46. Michael Bauman Avatar
    Michael Bauman

    “God created man in His own image. Man, being a gentleman, returned the compliment”

    We tend to filter our perceptions of God through or own brokenness.

  47. AR Avatar

    So Dino, that whole time you were talking about not seeing people as male or female, you were actually referring to not seeing them through a haze of sexual attraction? I thought you meant, not assessing “rank.”

    But surely, someone who struggles like that has no business being celibate? They would communicate that struggle to their spiritual children in some way!

  48. mary benton Avatar
    mary benton

    Dino –

    While what you wrote is interesting, I couldn’t help feeling that there was an implication that to be sexual is to be “impure”.

    Again, while sexuality is indeed distorted in our world, as the gift originally given to us, it is a share in God’s creative energy. (Forgive me if I accidentally choose the wrong words.) The earth is bursting with new life because of sexuality in virtually all plant and animal life.

    I believe that Jesus was fully human. However, speculation on how He experienced His bodily functions can be both fruitless and potentially dangerous territory for our fertile but corrupting imaginations, IMO.

    Better to simply accept that He experienced being human along with our normal temptations – but did not sin. To Him be glory!

  49. Dino Avatar
    Dino

    AR,
    Are you familiar with the details of Elder Joseph the Hesychast’s life?
    It has proved easy for some folk to get the wrong idea with a Saint of his eccentricity and of such calibre. Such an ascetic (according to patristic tradition) goes through a very different war with the demon of fornication than what the majority of us naturally assume.
    He was –funnily enough- the most wholesome and carnally untainted young man up to the time when this carnal combat broke out. He had already passed through years of physical confrontation (bloody) with demons -the sort of thing we see in the life of Saint Anthony the great. His character was, as you would expect, fiery gallant with a tendency towards confronting the enemy, face to face in the frontline (unlike the approach of Saint Porphyrios who always advised the opposite method with fervour) – the classic description for Elder Joseph would be the General of ‘the special forces’ of the desert Fathers. (a description Elder Sophrony –who had met him- employed to portray him)
    His warfare is very extreme and I would hesitate to describe it here due to the potential for misunderstanding…
    It is a psychophysical struggle we are talking about here indeed, but one that has extremely evident, undeniable spiritual/demonic undertones – therefore it is not the sort of thing that a person with a ‘natural’ tendency towards these passions (and who might communicate it to his spiritual children) goes through… It would predominantly make it’s appearance at times of prayer.
    However, why do you say such a person (even one with the genetic predisposition) should not be celibate? I am not sure I am understanding your reasons for it correctly…
    A person with this problem (as a natural tendency) – I am thinking chiefly of Saint Mary of Egypt- only ever thought that she could be transformed (utterly) ‘in the desert’, celibate; and not through any form of healthy channelling of this energy in blessed matrimony – no?
    I am obviously not denigrating the way of blessed marriage here but there is no doubt that such individuals who really want to grab the bull by the horns more than anything else tend towards “that lonely frontline”…

  50. Dino Avatar
    Dino

    Mary,
    Whether celibate or married, all Saints demonstrate a freedom from far more than sexual captivity. No?
    In God’s Uncreated Light they have experienced a mode of being like that of the angels indeed. Being human though, they see that physicality is sanctified in them… They see that Christianity is not a neo platonic dualism but a “holy materialism”.
    No matter what road one follows, living God’s commandments is a road that goes a great deal further – its never ending in fact- than what secularly influenced Christianity assumes and is even self-satisfied with.
    Elder Sophrony once explained the issue of sexuality as a ‘necessity’ for life or not in a peculiar manner.
    In a nutshell he said that there is a progression from more to less in God’s plan for the world seen in history. Adam and Eve’s descendents could intermarry, later this stopped but many wives were allowed, later this stopped and then laws that were further in favour of less possibilities for marriage with relatives came into place as well as the Church’s exultation of celibacy etc.
    He finished his words by saying that if – as many would ask him – all became monastics, the entire world would indeed cease to exist. But it would do so according to God’s plan – all would be saved. However, the world will never put Christ first in that kind of manner and will end ‘through fire’…
    I have only ever encountered these words from Elder Sophrony, although similar ones are found in many others.

  51. Dino Avatar
    Dino

    AR,
    Are you familiar with the details of Elder Joseph the Hesychast’s life?
    It has proved easy for some folk to get the wrong idea with a Saint of his eccentricity and of such calibre. Such an ascetic (according to patristic tradition) goes through a very different war with the demon of fornication than what the majority of us naturally assume.
    He was –funnily enough- the most wholesome and carnally untainted young man up to the time when this carnal combat broke out. He had already passed through years of physical confrontation (bloody) with demons -the sort of thing we see in the life of Saint Anthony the great. His character was, as you would expect, fiery gallant with a tendency towards confronting the enemy, face to face in the frontline (unlike the approach of Saint Porphyrios who always advised the opposite method with fervour) – the classic description for Elder Joseph would be the General of ‘the special forces’ of the desert Fathers. (a description Elder Sophrony –who had met him- employed to portray him)
    His warfare is very extreme and I would hesitate to describe it here due to the potential for misunderstanding…
    It is a psychophysical struggle we are talking about here indeed, but one that has extremely evident, undeniable spiritual/demonic undertones – therefore it is not the sort of thing that a person with a ‘natural’ tendency towards these passions (and who might communicate it to his spiritual children) goes through… It would predominantly make it’s appearance at times of prayer.
    However, why do you say such a person (even one with the genetic predisposition) should not be celibate? I am not sure I am understanding your reasons for it correctly…
    A person with this problem (as a natural tendency) – I am thinking chiefly of Saint Mary of Egypt- only ever thought that she could be transformed (utterly) ‘in the desert’, celibate; and not through any form of healthy channelling of this energy in blessed matrimony – no?
    I am obviously not denigrating the way of blessed marriage here but there is no doubt that such individuals who really want to grab the bull by the horns more than anything else tend towards “that lonely frontline”…

  52. Michael Bauman Avatar
    Michael Bauman

    Dino, not to gainsay the perspective of God bearing elders but even considering that I look at three things and wonder:

    1. Sexuality is far more than our limited understanding and expression of it and far more than merely for the continuance of the race. It need not even be carnal (although that is quite difficult). The male-female synergy is an integral and essential part of creation, or so it seems. We just tend to concentrate on only one small portion of it. If it were not, celibacy would be an abomination, IMO.

    2. Life would continually unfold and be brought forth even in the example of which Elder Sophrony spoke, would it not? We cannot imagine such a state, but surely life would not just end, because chaste celibacy is not a life denying discipline, quite the contrary.

    3. Have you seen/heard anything in this context about the three OT commandments given to us: Be fruitful and multiply; subdue the earth; dress and keep the earth; especially regarding the incarnational aspects of the male-female synergy?

  53. Albert Avatar
    Albert

    All helpful comments; thank you all. They provide new perspectives for an old novice. I spent so much of life looking for God in the real world that it has been difficult to consider that maybe most of that world is not real after all. I am referring especially to profound experiences of beauty (in nature, in relationships, and in art). So naturally it turns things upside down for me to think that Jesus’s being “fully human” might not mean that after all; ie, my concept of “human”

    Also it has been a source of great confusion to read about monks and women like St Mary of Egypt, whose holiness–a model for us, I assume–consists in a complete rejection of normal bodily needs. I think I would have run far away from Orthodoxy if this image had been presented to me first, instead of the Divine liturgy and the warm, very human presence of my ROCOR priest.

  54. Dino Avatar
    Dino

    I am having some issues getting my comments to appear, sorry.
    Michael,
    those three commandments are certainly understood in their hesychastic context to a far greater degree by the said Saints (the earth being the heart etc…)

  55. Dino Avatar
    Dino

    Albert,
    funny you mentioned that….
    I have met some of these people (mainly on Athos, although not only there), widely considered ascetic Holy people (such as Elder Ephraim of Katounakia, or Mother Makaria who discovered Saint Ephraim the great Martyr and wonderworker, and others).
    I found that they are “monks and women like St Mary of Egypt” whose holiness can seem as a complete rejection of normal bodily needs (when recounted to others). However it is the “warm, very human presence” that strikes you more than anything in there presence.
    I remember exclaiming to my friends after a long talk to a famous and very well respected Elder that ‘I feel like I had never encountered a human being before meeting him’.
    I recall that Elder Sophrony often described Saint Silouan (a strict ascetic like Elder Joseph) as a ‘true human being’. It is as if the complete forgetfulness/rejection of their selves is both the tree that bears the fruit of love (of such warmth, respect and love towards their neighbour that one feels that they have at last encountered human as it should be, like Christ), and the fruit of love.

  56. Dino Avatar
    Dino

    AR,
    Are you familiar with the details of Elder Joseph the Hesychast’s life?
    It has proved easy for some folk to get the wrong idea with a Saint of his eccentricity and of such calibre. Such an ascetic (according to patristic tradition) goes through a very differentwar with the demon of fornication than what the majority of us naturally assume.
    He was –funnily enough- the most wholesome and carnally untainted young man up to the time when this carnal combat broke out. He had already passed through years of physical confrontation (bloody) with demons -the sort of thing we see in the life of Saint Anthony the great. His character was, as you would expect, fiery gallant with a tendency towards confronting the enemy, face to face in the frontline (unlike the approach of Saint Porphyrios who always advised the opposite method with fervour) – the classic description for Elder Joseph would be the General of ‘the special forces’ of the desert Fathers. (a description Elder Sophrony –who had met him- employed to portray him)
    His warfare is very extreme and I would hesitate to describe it here due to the potential for misunderstanding…
    It is a psychophysical struggle we are talking about here indeed, but one that has extremely evident, undeniable spiritual/demonic undertones – therefore it is not the sort of thing that a person with a ‘natural’ tendency towards these passions (and who might communicate it to his spiritual children) goes through… It would predominantly make it’s appearance at times of prayer.
    However, why do you say such a person (even one with the genetic predisposition) should not be celibate? I am not sure I am understanding your reasons for it correctly…
    A person with this problem (as a natural tendency) – I am thinking chiefly of Saint Mary of Egypt- only ever thought that she could be transformed (utterly) ‘in the desert’, celibate; and not through any form of healthy channelling of this energy in blessed matrimony – no?
    I am obviously not denigrating the way of blessed marriage here but there is no doubt that such individuals who really want to grab the bull by the horns more than anything else tend towards “that lonely frontline”…

  57. AR Avatar

    Dino, if we know these things we should discriminate between them. St. Porphyrios tells us that his way is better and I believe him. I avoid stories with demons in them, saint or no saint. As you pointed out, Elder Joseph had no reason to struggle against fornication other than that he had been confronting demons. The Lord Jesus himself said it, to St. Silouan: the demons always show up where there is pride.

    I think that for those who have actually sinned a lot and know what they have done, celibacy is often better. Creepy people – my idea of those who look at others only to assess their sexual potential are mentally preoccupied and confused. My instinct is that an outwardly religious life could make this worse.

  58. Dino Avatar
    Dino

    AR,
    I fully understand the value of Saint Pophyrios’ approach although I am in no position to say myself – like Porphyrios said when characterising Saint Anthony the Great for instance – that the ‘other’ approach is somehow an objectively lesser one. There are many different characters and the diamond of holiness has many sides, some brighter than others.
    Elder Aimilianos, who -for those who know him well- is extremely like a very erudite version of Saint Porphyrios (especially concerning their ‘healthy obsession’ with positivity in the spiritual life) made that characterisation concerning the “demonic war of the flesh” that is ‘special’ only to those very advanced frontline warriors of the desert.
    Aimilianos and Pophyrios had an extremely similar mindset in numerous issues -which is surprisingly different to some other Fathers.
    But generalisation in one Father’s ‘general’ speech is often countered by an opposite specialisation when you hear them advising an individual who has a different ‘tendency’ or personality.
    So, although the demons do show up where there is pride, they also show up everywhere, even to our Lord in the desert, in fact they always ‘show up in the desert’ and Elder Joseph was a desert dweller.
    When grace comes and then goes again, we realise that we are all, no matter how pure and humble to the eyes of the world, ‘creepy people’ (in the absence of grace), whether of an animalistic or a demonic creepiness.
    Concerning Saint Pophyrios’ positivity he once exclaimed to an Eldress that he did not favour the Great Cannon of Saint Andrew of Crete, even though it has made people acquire repentance with its power, due to its typically self-preoccupied compunction. When she said that Saint Andrew also wrote the cannon chanted on Saint Ignatius’ feast he exclaimed with great enthusiasm that ‘Ignatius’ spirit had taken over Andrew entirely when he wrote that!’
    To each his own, I cannot evangelise this approach to all, even though I have been coached in it too through and see the healthiness in it…

  59. AR Avatar

    Subnormal people don’t do well attempting to replicate the feats of the exceptional so I don’t really know what your point is here.

    And no, demons do not appear to everyone. They did not appear to St. Porphyrios. Presumably the Lord was struggling on behalf of others. And no again, not all men are creeps! That is subnormal, even without a special experience of grace! Every woman knows the difference.

    For the rest, I don’t know how to interact with ambivalence, equivocation, sophistication, or agnosticism. Clearly love is the best way even if you don’t want to say something negative about the other ways.

  60. Dino Avatar
    Dino

    AR,
    Yes, love is the best way. But Love is not possible without a great deal of humility which is what attracts the Grace that enables us to love (and to advance to greater humility). So the point is that repentance and humility, no matter which road we use to get there is what is required. The joyous and loving and positive way is perhaps the best, (especially during these times) but there are many different personalities and tendencies in people. All can be used.

    I wasn’t saying ‘all men are creeps’ in that sense of course, sorry if it comes across like that. I was stating the patristic saying that

    ‘a mind that becomes cut off from God becomes either bestial or demonic’.

    Man or woman. If creepy is not a good word for seeing this horrible potential for every sin in us, maybe sinfulness is the more precise term to be used here.
    Elder Paisios characteristically once said after an experience of God’s grace subsided that he saw himself “as a beast”.

    There is perhaps not much point discussing demonic appearances here – every Saint and every person has different concepts concerning this issue. Saint Silouan or Anthony the Great or Elder Joseph or Paisios had these encounters often for all sorts of reasons – including being ‘desert dwellers’ as well as ‘struggling on behalf of others’

  61. Dino Avatar
    Dino

    We should add here the clarification that direct warfare with fallen angels (of that sort that scares people with vivid imaginations) is generally accepted as not something that happens mainly due to pride in Orthodox tradition, but something that happens once an ascetic has virtually overcome all passions. This is because the passions do all that is needed (and more) on behalf of our adversaries anyway. There is only any point in demons directly assaulting those who are in “danger” of overcoming them completely…
    But I guess this is probably common knowledge for many here.
    A saying by one Saint (of the numerous saints) that vanquished the demons is quite useful for the stance that we should adopt – it could have been uttered by Saint Marina the Great or (the yesterday celebrated) Simon the myrrh-gusher of Simonos Petra, or any other Saint famous for this type of battle, but this comes from Anthony the Great:

    “We ought not to fear the demons or even Satan himself, for he is a liar and speaks not a word of truth…and with him are placed the demons his fellows, like serpents and scorpions to be trodden underfoot by us Christians…and let us not fear his visions seeing that they themselves are deceptive….Doubtless they appear; but in a moment disappear again, hurting none of the faithful ….Wherefore it is unfitting that we should fear them on account of these things; for through the Grace of Christ all their practices are in vain.

  62. Dino Avatar
    Dino

    Mary, Albert and Michael,
    concerning “Be fruitful and multiply; subdue the earth; dress and keep the earth; especially regarding the incarnational aspects of the male-female synergy”
    …maybe we should keep well in mind that the Fathers say that the reproduction process that would have taken place in the absence of the fall would be entirely different and unknown to us. St Maximus is adamant on this point in Ambiguum, as is John Chrysostom (especially in his ‘On Virginity’), John the Damascene says the same in his famous ‘Exact Exposition of the Orthodox Faith’. That God would have multiplied the human race without sexual reproduction is a given for many others too -well, all who have approached the subject as far as I know- St Athanasius the Great (his commentary on Psalm 50:5), Gregory of Nyssa (the making of Man), Symeon of Thessalonika as well as contemporaries like the ones mentioned above…

    Speaking of which here is a link to the life of Elder Joseph (I wasn’t clear how familiar you are with him AR):

    http://www.stanthonysmonastery.org/ccp7/index.php?app=ecom&ns=prodshow&ref=3MYELDERJOSEPHENG&sid=96cg1u9vu449li92iorss22922m7fj80

  63. fatherstephen Avatar
    fatherstephen

    And St. Augustine’s comments on that speculative topic are the most bizarre I can imagine. I frankly find it to be one of the weirdest speculations ever found in any of the fathers. The “what if,” is an exercise in pure imagination – a place where even we Orthodox cross a line which we should not.

  64. Mary Avatar
    Mary

    I have been re-reading these comments, and again finding them very helpful as I sometimes experience the sting of gender issues in our culture. I am thoroughly convinced that the gendered version of the Gospel is the most human and true, as you’ve said elsewhere, but I am also eager to hear our church leaders speak more boldly about gender in a way that is affirming of the worth of both sexes as well and their differences.

    I read the recent news about the deaconesses in Africa with joy, and then dismay at the often hostile reactions I saw, causing me to rethink these things. I’m curious about the comments above that there isn’t a “need” for deaconesses (I have heard it said less kindly, “what could she do that a man couldn’t do?”), especially in light of the story you have told about the professor who didn’t believe in angels. Is it possible that necessity is the wrong approach?

    Forgive me, I know it is a contentious topic and this is an old thread. I so respect your insight.

  65. Fr. Stephen Freeman Avatar

    Mary, it is often a troublesome issue. The reactions and bitter words of some have to be something to lay aside (otherwise we’ll just fade into the darkness).

    I suspect that there are cultural “needs” that are appropriate to the deaconesses in Africa. I think it is possibly misleading that they were termed “deaconess” – only in that it hinted that they were something they are not.

    What is troubling is that the push about women in the priesthood has clearly been accompanied by disaster in the traditional churches – an abandonment of orthodoxy in so many other areas with a modern paradigm as a substitute. Necessity is the wrong term – perhaps – but deeply in error is any endorsement of modernity’s notion that male and female differences are to be ignored. They were not being ignored in the African case, I think, but, instead, considered fairly carefully. Necessity is the wrong word – appropriate would probably be the better one.

  66. Byron Avatar
    Byron

    What is troubling is that the push about women in the priesthood has clearly been accompanied by disaster in the traditional churches – an abandonment of orthodoxy in so many other areas with a modern paradigm as a substitute. Necessity is the wrong term – perhaps – but deeply in error is any endorsement of modernity’s notion that male and female differences are to be ignored. They were not being ignored in the African case, I think, but, instead, considered fairly carefully. Necessity is the wrong word – appropriate would probably be the better one.

    Yes, even in the Orthodox Church, much of the desire for instituting Deaconnesses is rooted in the modern notion of “equality” and the politics of our time. For many women (in the Church) I have spoken with it is only a stepping stone to their (very transparent) desire to have women priests. The phrase “I can do so much more” is often used.

    I personally rejoice for the African Deaconnesses but I admit to some trepidation when I first saw the story. I fully expected the deluge of politically rooted comments from “both sides” and I dreaded it. “Appropriate” is a very good word, I think. Thank you for that, Father.

  67. Helen Avatar
    Helen

    Christos Anesti!
    Amazing that I was led to this older blog post today as I am struggling with the ego and the silence of God.

    In response to the comment of your friend about you being afraid of change and therefore your conversion to Orthodoxy: the irony is that the change that happens when you encounter the unchanging God is tremendous. It’s internal – to the heart and to the ego.

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