Comments

221 responses to “Why Morality is Not Christian”

1. 

   Michael Bauman

   January 19, 2013

   PJ. My trouble with the natural law approach is that, by itself, it tends toward deism which is a fundamental denial of the incarnation.

2. 

   fatherstephen

   January 19, 2013

   I remember now the word I was searching for viz. the natural law – It’s a theological Trojan Horse.

3. 

   PJ

   January 19, 2013

   Michael,

   The deists, beginning with Locke and Hobbes, rejected traditional natural law, at least as classically expounded by Catholic theologians. The Enlightened philosophes, including those who founded this country, had no interest in a paradigm rooted in the social kingship of Jesus Christ and the mutual cooperation of the secular and sacred realms. That was medieval monkish popery. The appeals by Jefferson, Madison, etc. to the “Almighty Author” or “First Principle” is a world apart from the Catholic natural law tradition, wherein Christ is King, and all aspects of civilization are brought into conformity with that reality. So when I speak of natural law, I am imagining as my model medieval Europe, with its explicitly Christian commonwealth, not republican, Masonic, “Hobblockean” America.

4. 

   Fatherstephen

   January 19, 2013

   PJ.
   You absolutely win the prize for best new word of the year! Let’s all hear it for “hobbelockian”! With the adverbial use of Masonic as an intensifier, you have exceeded my fondest hopes! I am so wanting the right conversation to come up so I can use this!

5. 

   PJ

   January 19, 2013

   I wish I could take credit for it, but I picked it up from the work of a delightful curmudgeon named Christopher Ferrara, from his book “Liberty: The God That Failed.” It’s a pretty scathing look at Americans’ fixation with rootless, godless, disordered liberty (more properly called license).

   It does have a fun ring to it, though. : – )

6. 

   TLO

   January 20, 2013

   Rhonda:

   it does not apply to you because you do argue so adamantly for it.

   You are very much mistaken. From my experience, Orthodox Christians are the only sane Christians around. If one is to be a Christian, I am adamantly opposed to Protestantism in any form as there is nothing in Protestantism that fails to lead to insanity. But I have never been more convinced that there is no god than I am now. I’m willing for any god to convince me otherwise but silence isn’t doing the trick.

   PJ & Michael: It seems to me that “every man has the law written on his heart by virtue of his being in the image of God” is simply a another way of saying, “that’s the way humans are, therefore morality is a result of being created in god’s image.” It makes more sense just to say “that’s the way humans are” and just leave it at that. Tossing any deity into the conversation throws an unnecessary level of complexity.

   Let me ask this.

   I have a 3 year old granddaughter called Jenny who is very troubled. Some days she’s sweet as can be. Other days, not so much. On more than one occasion she has stated that she intends to kill her mother, her sisters, and any police who may want to interfere. She has not been exposed to anything more violent than Sesame Street. This is not learned behavior from anyone in her surroundings.

   In addition, she has stated on one occasion that she wishes that she could be Carie again. No one knows where the heck this came from as she knows no one by that name.

   Clearly this child has issues. Are they spiritual or physical? Is she possessed or does she need medication and/or counseling?

   My point is that this child clearly does not have the same innate moral code with which most of us are wired.

   Is this because she is not made in the image of god or that god has somehow abandoned her or some devil has influence over her? Or is it more likely that she has a mental illness or simply that she is wired in ways that lead to violent thoughts?

   To my way of thinking, I find it far preferable that she has a mental illness that can be treated medically or with therapy than to ascribe these to a spiritual condition. the former case gives us hope that something can be done. The latter only leaves us at the mercy of a god who may or may not intervene on her behalf. If history is any guide, the “may not” is the more likely scenario.

   I find it very difficult to accept that we are made “in the image of god” and are therefore moral beings. It leaves far too may questions (like those surrounding this child) unanswered and unanswerable.

7. 

   dinoship

   January 20, 2013

   TLO,
   I sincerely believe that, (feel free to discard this as my experience and “research” if you want, but I have no doubt that the “other option” is far more far fetched), the ‘scientist’ explanation deludes itself when thinking it has the answers (and is content in ignoring its current lack of answers while ‘waiting’ for them to maybe come from its field in the future -‘faithfully’ waiting -that is a faith in science). Meanwhile, the Christian ‘explanation’, if properly examined and lived in an Orthodox contest, “leaves far less questions (like those surrounding this child) answered and answerable.”
   There really is no “contest”

8. 

   dinoship

   January 20, 2013

   Oops! that sounded like (“there is no contest”), the Christian ‘explanation’ has the incontestable superiority (Freudean slip of the tongue..). But, irrespective of that, I actually meant that we should not, if properly approaching these matters, compare apples and pears, the two fields have distinct sectors and you should not fall into the delusion that they must contest with each other on the explanation of, what is really, each others sectors. there should really be no contest…
   We have had this conversation here before though…
   🙂

9. 

   PJ

   January 20, 2013

   John,

   That’s obviously very abnormal behavior, especially from such a young child who, I presume, has had minimal exposure to violence and death. The identity confusion only thickens the bizarre stew.

   I am not competent to comment thoroughly or definitively on her unfortunate situation. I can only say that man is not a “ghost in the machine,” a la Descartes, but rather a unified whole, an organic compound of spirit and matter: he is an ensouled body. From this perspective, everything that influences man’s body influences his soul, and everything that influences his soul influences his body. This is why a Catholic or an Orthodox suffering from a serious illness might be doused in prayers and ointments of healing one moment, and the next moment be under the knife of a trained surgeon. Similarly, someone suffering from terrible anger might seek the counseling of a therapist and a priest. I, for one, have a psychologist who is a deeply committed Catholic (and the in-house shrink for the local seminary), and so spirituality is a major element of my therapy.

   I truly hope that little girl gets betters. I will pray for her — for whatever it is worth in your opinion. God bless.

10. 

    Michael Bauman

    January 20, 2013

    PJ

    My point is that for a lot of people natural law been uncoupled from God. IMO it began with the Catholic humanists in the 14th century and continued to the present. The concomitant temptation for we Orthodox is to forget that matter matters and become too ethereal. That too is a fundamental denial of the incarnation.

11. 

    Micah

    January 20, 2013

    Michael & PJ, if I may — NL tends toward a denial of Pascha, although some parts are beautifully covered.

12. 

    mary benton

    January 20, 2013

    TLO –

    I’m so sorry that your granddaughter is so troubled. I hope she has been evaluated and is getting good care. (Often hard to find with children who have unusual conditions.) My prayers for her and your family. It must be quite a challenge, on many levels.

    Blessings.

13. 

    Micah

    January 21, 2013

    TLO, if I may — in truth, it is God Who seeks man. We wouldn’t know what to look for, or where to look.

14. 

    Lasseter

    January 21, 2013

    TLO:

    From my experience, Orthodox Christians are the only sane Christians around. If one is to be a Christian, I am adamantly opposed to Protestantism in any form as there is nothing in Protestantism that fails to lead to insanity.

    This is my new favorite blog comment.

    As for the discussion, the doubts about God’s existence and the attempts to explain it remind me of the verse in Ecclesiastes about the Lord having set the aeons in our hearts such that we cannot know the beginning or the end. We are, after all, speaking of a mystery. I find validity in the doubts expressed by TLO. God is marvelously silent, and this life is often marvelously rotten. Ecclesiastes is a pretty good example of searching the ridiculousness of this existence for transcendent meaning, and I think it speaks well to the longing and draws a logical conclusion. It is not, however, pure logic (in the modern sense of the word) that leads to faith, and perception contains more than reason.

    Seems to me there are a good many Psalms and other passages, Old and New, about such despair or feelings of abandonment as well. Man, including religious and spiritually developed man, has struggled with this for a long time.

    In any case, as an Orthodox I am unoffended by anyone’s righteous concerns about the inscrutability of Providence or any accompanying doubts about the benevolent Creator’s existence. I myself haven’t the words to assuage the doubts. I have them myself.

    I hope the girl gets the treatment she needs. Searching for a theological explanation for her illness, by the way, strikes me as even more of a folly than trying to prove God’s existence. If there be earthly care that can aid her, then that’s the way to go. Who knows why God permitted the illness? Surely not any of us. Darkening counsel by words without knowledge won’t manage her illness or cure her, in any case.

    First comment. I hope that I was correct in deducing how to format the above text.

15. 

    dinoship

    January 21, 2013

    Lasseter,
    excellent comment!

16. 

    leonard Nugent

    January 21, 2013

    TLO you are quite right. I’m a Roman Catholic and almost none of us are sane!

17. 

    PJ

    January 21, 2013

    “My point is that for a lot of people natural law been uncoupled from God. IMO it began with the Catholic humanists in the 14th century and continued to the present. The concomitant temptation for we Orthodox is to forget that matter matters and become too ethereal. That too is a fundamental denial of the incarnation.”

    The difficulty is that there are several theories which fit loosely under the umbrella term “natural law.” One of them is indeed deistic, humanistic, rationalistic, and even borderline materialistic. The other — which I profess — is Christological rather than deistic; theandric rather than humanistic; sapiental rather than rationalistic (in the modern sense); and brooks no materialistic nonsense. In fact, I’d contend that a society operating under classical natural law is less predisposed to irreligion and deism. It is in our secular societies that God — that is, “religion” — is cast from the public square and relegated to the so-called private realm. The Christian commonwealths, both Latin and Greek, were theocentric civilizations, revolving around the worship of the Trinity, both public and private. Law and custom alike were shaped — or even transformed — by the power of the gospel. Christendom was hardly perfect, but at least its inhabitants couldn’t be accused of the enormous folly of trying to organize a society without reference to the Creator and Sustainer of mankind.

18. 

    Michael Bauman

    January 21, 2013

    PJ, I agree with you. Unfortunately, Christendom is dead. Therefore any mode of thought that relies on a theandric culture is going to have problems. The Orthoodx belief in the synergy of the Church and the state is one.

    While I may be quite wrong, it seems that the classical natural law you describe is another. In any case, the natural law approach, even in a theandric model, seems to me to unnecessarily downplay intense inter-relationship we created human beings can and should have with our creator in the person of Jesus Christ. The inter-relationship is of such intimacy that many have described it as marital.

    It is not just the Church for whom Jesus is the Bridegroom, but for each of us.

19. 

    leonard Nugent

    January 21, 2013

    Michael Bauman it seems to me that if a church had no mystical theology that would be Arianism and if it had no natural law that would be Monophysitism. Jesus Chris is true God and true man and has to be related to both ways

20. 

    leonard Nugent

    January 21, 2013

    Illustrating my previous comment, there is a book I study named “Christian Perfection and Contemplation according to St Thomas Aquinas and St John of the Cross” It contains both

21. 

    TLO

    January 21, 2013

    Lasseter

    It is not, however, pure logic (in the modern sense of the word) that leads to faith, and perception contains more than reason.

    I agree. There is nothing logical about any relationships with any persons. Hence my certainty is not mathematical but simply a result of perpetual silence. The absence of a person make a relationship with him/her impossible. Consider Manti Te’o as a prime example of what I mean. It is possible to become emotionally invested in a phantom that others are presenting to you.

    I am unoffended by anyone’s righteous concerns about the inscrutability of Providence or any accompanying doubts about the benevolent Creator’s existence… Searching for a theological explanation for her illness, by the way, strikes me as even more of a folly…

    I think you prove my point about the Orthodox being sane rather well.

    leonard Nugent:

    I’m a Roman Catholic and almost none of us are sane!

    Inasmuch as Roman Catholics are certainly not Protestant, I tend to congregate you with your other apostolic brethren in the sanity clause.

    I will say this for the EO/WO Christians that I know – they know why they believe what they believe. I have not always found this to be true among the Roman Catholics that I have known. Still, it seems to me that the RC is devoid of the nefarious doctrines that plague Protestant churches and lead to logical absurdities and hyper-introspective psychosis. (To be honest, we still at times visit the local cathedral (after services) as a place of solace and meditation.)

22. 

    PJ

    January 21, 2013

    John,

    I wonder if the knowledge and devotion of the Orthodox is related to the remarkable number of converts.

    Michael,

    Christendom is gone — but is it gone for good? Make no mistake: I have no interest in resurrecting 13th century France, but is it so crazy to hope that one day our culture might recommit itself to the collective expression of the gospel? That we might one day recognize the kingship of Christ over all things? We needn’t believe that secular liberalism will always be the state of affairs. think that the new Hungarian constitution, with its frank and explicit acknowledgement of the Christian faith, is an interesting case worthy of study.

23. 

    leonard Nugent

    January 21, 2013

    TLO when you say EO/WO know why they believe what they believe have you considered the issue of baptism that comes up when the ROCOR is involved. I’ve had time to think about it you can come up with some extremely strange senarios. I used to be mad at my church for making a mockery of the initiation sacraments but recently I’ve come across something that is even more rediculous

24. 

    leonard Nugent

    January 21, 2013

    For example, if a protestant receives a trinitarian baptism and requests to enter the oca that baptism is accepted. However is the same protestant instead enters ROCOR he or she will be baptised. Now, is said “new ROCOR” member then joins the OCA which baptism is he or she professing in the creed. The protestant one originally accepted by the OCA or the ROCOR baptism?

25. 

    leonard Nugent

    January 21, 2013

    or does it matter?

26. 

    fatherstephen

    January 21, 2013

    Leonard,
    Your question regarding baptism is stuck in categories of “validity.” There is only one Baptism and can be only one Baptism. But the whole matter of receiving converts, is not really a matter of “receiving their baptisms.” The canons governing this never treat the matter as a question of accepting sacramental acts performed outside the One Church. Nevertheless, these canons provide possibilities of “economia,” in the reception of converts, allowing a latitude to some Baptized outside the Church, receiving by Chrismation, or, in some cases, requiring only Confession and Absolution.

    In the example you cite, more to the point would be, that ROCOR, exercising a stricter requirement for the reception of a convert (a matter that is properly at the discretion of a Bishop, or Synod of Bishops), would accept, with no further requirement, someone who had been received in the OCA by Christmation. That action makes it clear that the Orthodox consideration in the matter is not about the character of someone’s “Baptism” elsewhere, but only about the reception of a convert (from a schismatic situation). Once they are united to the Cup in Holy Orthodoxy, regardless of how they were received under whatever Bishop, they are in the Orthodox Church. It’s simply that the Orthodox do not look at the sacraments with the same eye as the West. The sacraments never “stand alone,” as something to be considered by itself apart from the fullness of the Church. What the Church has, in its fullness, is the capacity to extend economy to whomever. That one synod does it one way and another does it another is neither here nor there for the Orthodox. There are discussions underway to come to greater uniformity in this across the world in Orthodoxy, because of the increasing phenomenon of conversion – but there is no particular theological issue at stake.

27. 

    dinoship

    January 21, 2013

    I found this interesting on baptism, although I 100% agree with Father Stephen:

    http://www.strange24-7.com/2012/08/miracle-during-baptism_6052.html

28. 

    leonard Nugent

    January 21, 2013

    Father, I think that the discussions to come to greater uniformity of receiving converts would be a good thing all around. Re chrismation used to bother me but this issue goes way beyond that one. I was baptized as a little baby in a Roman Catholic church. When I was 27 I went into the “Church of Christ” and they rebaptized me. It was on July 26, 1982 The feast of Sts Joachim and Anne in the Roman Church incidently. I was there for 16 years and then went back to my original church. Before I was received I went to confession and confessed that I had repeated the sacrament of baptism. Now when I profess one baptism for the remission of sins I’m certain of which one I’m talking about.

29. 

    leonard Nugent

    January 21, 2013

    I could add that there is a book titled “The Russian Church and the Papacy” in which Vladimer Solovev suffers from the same scruples as I do about this

30. 

    fatherstephen

    January 21, 2013

    Soloviev is notoriously not an Orthodox thinker. His scruples and yours are based on Roman assumptions about the nature reception into the Church. Rome’s theology on the sacraments often differs from Orthodoxy in subtle ways. Oddly, Rome’s sacraments not understood in nearly as “ecclesial” a manner as Orthodoxy – but neither is the Church understood in as “ecclesial” a manner as Orthodoxy.

31. 

    Lasseter

    January 21, 2013

    TLO:

    The absence of a person make a relationship with him/her impossible.

    Much of the figurative language we use for God can complicate things if understood in too mundane a way. He is, for instance, our Heavenly Father, but He is certainly not our father in same way that our birth fathers are. How would anyone feel to be forsaken by his daddy the way that, say, Job was abandoned to Satan by the Lord? It would be downright criminal from a human father, and yet it is acceptable with our Father in Heaven. He is our Father in some sense, but not in any way governed by rules or justice we can comprehend.

    Just the same, the Incarnation gives us God as a human being, but, unless you were around two thousand years ago, chances are you haven’t had any face time with this particular fellow, however human he is. A phrase one will seldom hear from an Orthodox, by my reckoning, is “personal relationship with Jesus Christ,” and thank goodness. We will also not as often as others call Him just by His first name (his Christian name, hardy har): oh, we do call him Jesus, but other terms are used by Orthodox more often, I think (as in “Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, be merciful to me, the sinner”), and we surely don’t end our every prayer with “in Jesus’ name.” Many heterodox prefer to stay on a first name basis with the Lord.

    None of this offers an immediate solution to the problem of finding it impossible to relate to an absent person, but I note that our “personal” conception of God in Orthodoxy is markedly less humanly and cognizably personal than in the thoughts of, say, those Protestants whose madness you lovingly mentioned once or twice. Thinking of God is too mundanely personal terms, in terms of personal relations as we know them in earthly life, is a nice way to drive yourself to atheism or, as you noted, psychotic delusion.

    I think you prove my point about the Orthodox being sane rather well.

    Thank you.

    Thanks to dinoship for the kind comment as well.

32. 

    leonard Nugent

    January 23, 2013

    Father I understand your point unfortunately because of this I feel even more outside the One True Church than I did before.

33. 

    leonard Nugent

    January 23, 2013

    A very good illustration of the Roman church’s sacrament not being ecclesial is the ordination of 4 bishops by Abp Lefebvre. He was comitting a schzmatic act and was excommunicated for it yet those 4 men are still considered bishops by the latin church. That is something that is hard for me to accept. I do understand your point. In fact I think it’s St Cyprian who espouses the ecclesial nature of the sacraments

34. 

    PJ

    January 23, 2013

    Leonard,

    The Catholic Church also considers the episcopacy of Orthodox bishops to be valid, despite their being in schism. From what I can tell, Orthodox opinion vis-a-vis Catholic bishops is mixed, though I was pleased by this statement by Metropolitan Hilarion, “We proceed from the fact that this [the Roman Catholic Church] is a Church which has preserved apostolic succession.”

35. 

    fatherstephen

    January 23, 2013

    Leonard,
    Oddly, the Orthodox would accept the kind of ordinations you describe – inasmuch as they would not “re-ordain” such men if they were received back into the Church – or at least in most cases they would not be. But again, it’s not because the sacrament somehow stands alone, as an “act” that has validity or non-validity. It is the Church, the Ecclesia, that constitutes the reality of Christ’s Kingdom in this world, and it is only in that context that sacraments are rightly understood. Many, many schismatic groups tout their “apostolic succession.” Anytime I run across a group that has to cite their “succession” and how they came by it, it means to me that they have no succession. It is not “succession” as such that matters, but union in the Truth. Such schismatics demonstrate their own heresies in their very efforts to substantiate their legitimacy.

    If more people had even the remotest grasp of a true ecclesiology, these things would be much more clear. Protestantism is the rejection of ecclesiology and has made it very difficult for most people to even understand the topic. It continues to me among the more contentious topics between Orthodoxy and Rome.

36. 

    Micah

    January 23, 2013

    Leonard, if I may — John Sandipoulos has posted an insightful article outlining what is, and what is not, an authentic expression of Orthodoxy:

    There is a trend nowadays to chant in a Byzantine way, to make icons in a Byzantine manner, to build churches according to Byzantine architecture, etc. This is good. Yet, it must be done in parallel with the effort to find and use the therapeutic treatment of the Church. For, liturgical arts as well as the entire teaching of the Church are the expression of this inner life. In other words, liturgical art was developed by sanctified people who had personal experience of the stages of spiritual perfection. In their attempt to create art they infused into their art all the experiences they had. The iconographer passed down in the Byzantine icon the therapeutic method and the way in which man reaches to theosis; he even imparted the state of theosis itself. When he paints the Saint in glory, he also renders the transfiguration of the human body. The same thing applies to the sacred hymns, the church building, the chanting. The healed person, he who has acquired the experience of noetic worship, knows how the intellectual worship must be expressed, so that it is attuned, as much as possible, with the inner state of the soul. I think that the revival of the liturgical arts which do not express and do not lead to purification, illumination and theosis is not Orthodox despite its external conformity. It is just a culture of the tradition and of art.

    The author of the article Metropolitan Hierotheos defines Orthodoxy as an internal conformity. To properly express such worship, a certain amount of discipline is needed (to access the inner realms). More often than not, the catalyst is divine silence rather than any supernal or heroic effort on man’s part. Metropolitan Hierotheos continues:

    Also, it is possible that a contemporary deified person may express tradition differently, concerning the liturgical arts, without naturally being estranged from the basic structure of the Byzantine tradition. This occurs because the Saint obtains the tradition, he is a bearer of tradition and, therefore, he creates tradition.

    Blessings to you and your family!

37. 

    leonard Nugent

    January 23, 2013

    Father I agree with you about ecclesiology. I’ve read and admire Father Nicholas Affanasev’s writing about it. I pray quite a bit for him. Not so much thaat Rome will finally understand correct ecclesiology or that Othodoxy will understand correct ecclesiology but that ecclesiology will be understood

38. 

    TLO

    January 23, 2013

    Leonard

    because of this I feel even more outside the One True Church than I did before.

    I’d really like to have this explained to me. If god is your father and your heart is turned to him, why does it matter whether some doctrine or other makes you feel like you are “inside the one true faith” or not? None of my kids relates to me in the same way as their siblings and all have varying understandings of who I am but that doesn’t put any of them outside the family or change their status with me.

    Does it seem plausible to you that god really cares about adopting the right doctrine as much as adopting the right heart? To my mind, any doctrine that makes you feel separated from god or the community of believers is probably a load of tosh. (IMNTBHO)

39. 

    TLO

    January 23, 2013

    Sorry. My rage against such doctrines from my upbringing flared up a bit.

40. 

    PJ

    January 23, 2013

    The doctrine that sex is reserved for man and woman in marriage makes many “feel separated” from “god” and “community,” but that doesn’t mean we should abandon it. The tyranny of sentiment already dominates modern life: it cannot be allowed to dictate the truths of the Christian faith.

41. 

    dinoship

    January 23, 2013

    TLO,
    There is far more than the usual, (somewhat secular) diminished understanding of doctrine here:
    One cannot be united to Christ without also becoming His One True Church, and one who is not grafted unto His Body (the Church) will

    “feel separated from god or the community of believers”…

    Your kids are also your one true family and being your one true family is the same as being your kids, (family = church). So one who truly wants to be unified to God as His child would obviously want to be part of His one True Faith/Church, no?

42. 

    PJ

    January 23, 2013

    I also humbly submit that there is a connection between right belief and right behavior. Paul makes this especially clear in Romans 1, when he links idolatry to the various sinful passions.

    “They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator — who is forever praised. Amen.

    Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.

    Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy.”

    The content of the faith is not meaningless. We could not be unitarians just as easily as we could be trinitarians.

    Christianity cannot be boiled down to good works or a kind disposition. It is about knowledge of God, who alone is the source and summit of love.

    This is not to say that scholastic handbooks are the keys to the kingdom. Just that it’s imprudent to throw overboard theology.

43. 

    Micah

    January 23, 2013

    PJ says:

    The tyranny of sentiment already dominates modern life: it cannot be allowed to dictate the truths of the Christian faith.

    Yes. Truth is Person. We rightfully perceive the other only insofar as this Truth is in us.

44. 

    mary benton

    January 23, 2013

    PJ –

    Perhaps I lost the thread here…but I do not understand your introduction of the topic of homosexuality.

    Sexual orientation is something that is poorly understood among many people. People of either hetero or homo orientation may engage in “shameful lusts”, etc., as either may engage in deep and loving commitments.

    There is considerable evidence that one’s orientation is something one is born with or that develops early in life, rather than being chosen. To equate one orientation with sinfulness can be very hurtful to people who are genuinely trying to follow God.

    I am not trying to open up a major controversy here as much as to ask for sensitivity – none of us knows what it feels like to be another person. None of us knows the intent of our Creator in creating people with differences.

    I agree with you about the “tyranny of sentiment” – in that our understanding of God’s truth should not be based on making people feel good and included, regardless of their beliefs or behaviors. On the other hand, it is important to be open to understanding those whose differences we may not understand well.

45. 

    fatherstephen

    January 24, 2013

    PJ,
    Too quickly we move from the heart back to the mind, from the true self to the ego. “True theology,” is important, but ultimately resides in the heart, where alone truth and love are united. That union will not be a tyranny of sentiment. But without that union, “theology,” the data of revelation will simply be something to bludgeon others with. Mary Benton’s point is apropos.

46. 

    PJ

    January 24, 2013

    Mary,

    I didn’t bring up homosexuality, per se. I brought up sexuality, the orthodox Christian understanding of which can upset both heterosexuals and homosexuals. But I could have chosen any controversial doctrine.

    You state my case for me: “[O]ur understanding of God’s truth should not be based on making people feel good and included, regardless of their beliefs or behaviors.” This is what I meant to say.

    I wasn’t trying to come down on homosexuals. I agree that they are too often treated with an appalling lack of charity and sensitivity. Of course, it would be equally unkind to fail to assert the truth that the gift of sex is for man and woman in marriage.

    (For the record, as a Catholic, I don’t believe that an “orientation” is sinful *in and of itself,* and how one becomes gay or straight appears to be a mysterious mixture of nature and nurture.)

47. 

    Micah

    January 24, 2013

    PJ says:

    For the record, as a Catholic, I don’t believe that an “orientation” is sinful *in and of itself*.

    Some thoughts on the matter: In trying to identify the root of one disorder, we often stumble on another still deeper, root:

    More than a third of respondents (36%) think abortion should be legal in all cases, whereas a majority (55%) thinks that the procedure should be legal only under certain circumstances. Only three per cent of Britons would ban abortion altogether.

    Angus Reid Public Opinion 2010

    With heresy so widespread, we need all the more to heed St Silouan’s commandment:

    Keep thy mind in hell, and despair not!

    A Christian attitude is either praxis, or it nothing at all:

    While discussing the horror of Nazis with a friend whose mother died in a concentration camp, he [Dietrich von Hildebrand] said, “If Hitler were dying in jail and begged for a glass of water, I would hasten to give it to him.”

    Alice von Hildebrand says it as it is.

48. 

    dinoship

    January 24, 2013

    I too agree with both sides here and must remind myself of Father’s wise saying time and again:

    without that union [of truth and love], “theology,” the data of revelation will simply be something to bludgeon others with

    it reminds me of Elder Paisios once exclaiming (in his typically quirky style) about a person who was highly versed in his (“dry, intellectual”) knowledge of the Fathers, yet, lacked an equivalent humility and love in his application of that knowledge (application on others, of course):
    “That man casts true ‘diamonds’, but, if one was to strike you on the brow… it would surely obliterate you!”

49. 

    PJ

    January 24, 2013

    Talk about casting pearls!

50. 

    Micah

    January 24, 2013

    Quite!

51. 

    mary benton

    January 24, 2013

    PJ- you wrote:

    “I agree that they(homosexuals)are too often treated with an appalling lack of charity and sensitivity. Of course, it would be equally unkind to fail to assert the truth that the gift of sex is for man and woman in marriage.”

    I’m afraid I cannot agree with part two of what you wrote. We agree on the “appalling lack of charity and sensitivity”. But I do not understand why you feel it would be “unkind” to not assert the truth as you believe it. If you are the person’s spiritual father/director, that is a different matter.

    However, I think when it is a matter so sensitive, it is kinder for the average person to say – and only if asked – perhaps it would help you to discuss this with your spiritual father… Most homosexuals are already painfully aware that the teachings of many churches offer them no alternative but celibacy. To be reminded outside of pastoral care would, in my mind, be more “unkind”.

    I realize that this is perhaps off track of the overall point you were making. While I am not suggesting that Christians should never verbalize a stance on controversial topics, I think we draw more people to the faith by minding our own souls lest we “bludgeon”, even if with good intention.

52. 

    TLO

    January 25, 2013

    What’s the big deal about homosexuality? Homosexual behavior is found all throughout the animal kingdom. It is a fact of nature, not a moral question. May as well say that it’s sinful to be have blue eyes.

53. 

    Micah

    January 25, 2013

    Having blue eyes is not a sin but sinning against the Holy Spirit most certainly is.

54. 

    dinoship

    January 25, 2013

    TLO,
    Although I entirely agree with Mary Benton’s last comment, I would like to remind you that you have stated that you have a different view of the Fall to the Orthodox. That is a key aspect of how the new view of such matters tend to be seen nowadays – the “new religion” is one that does not accept any falleness. Homosexuality is simply a very small part of this puzzle of falleness, there are far more significant ones which are also considered as completely ‘natural’, yet the Orthodox would label unnatural. Most of what we accept in the world as life. there is a great chasm of though here i fear…

55. 

    dinoship

    January 25, 2013

    As Father Alexander Schmemann famously said:

    “The question is not at all whether it [homosexuality] is natural or unnatural, since this question is generally inapplicable to fallen nature, in which—and this is the point—everything is distorted, everything, in a sense, has become unnatural. . . . Homosexuality is a manifestation of the ‘thorn in the flesh’ which tortures in various ways, but tortures every one. In the fallen world nothing can be ‘normalized,’ but everything can be saved.”

    So, for example, someone who truly wants to become like Christ (to be in Christ rather than in Adam) would be highly vigilant in every one of his relationships against “attachment” (a most serious antagonist to the first commandment and the correct application of the second – probably the most common enemy of true love in fact, far more than ‘hate’…!).
    This would include “attachments” to all friends, acquaintances and of course family members as well as ideas, opinions, hobbies etc. So, just imagine, the distance from that high (though quite ‘basic’) standard in Orthodoxy; and something a great deal further down the line of non-vigilance, such as the condoning, or the practice of sodomy or “just revenge” or simply the relaxation of vigilance for the sake of some ‘well earned relaxation into reverie’ – what we might now call “Me time in a Spa”.
    Of course, the Orthodox application of all this is “only to me”, ‘others’ are all God’s business of whom I am a servant and not my own responsibility! My responsibility towards ‘others’ is to constantly say “yes”, understand, excuse, forgive, comprehend and accept them…
    Truth and its all important knowledge must never be separated from Love, humility and discernment.

56. 

    dinoship

    January 25, 2013

    So, whether I have a tendency towards gluttony, reverie, despondency, sensuality, pride, argumentativeness, complaining, cowardice, laziness, promiscuity, attachment (homo or hetero), or some other passion, I must deal with it in an ascetical Orthodox framework, not succumb to it. It is what makes people what they were meant to be – Saints.
    to quote Father Alexander again:

    “It’s how you deal with what you’ve been dealt.”

57. 

    PJ

    January 25, 2013

    Mary,

    We’re actually in agreement. I didn’t mean that Christians should go around telling random gays and lesbians they meet that homosexuality is wrong. Rather, the Church qua Church should maintain this important truth — insofar as it is part of its wonderful teaching on human sexuality. I further agree that the direct admonishment of sin should usually — usually — be reserved to spiritual directors, clergy, family, and close friends.

58. 

    mary benton

    January 25, 2013

    dinoship –

    Well said. “the Orthodox application of all this is “only to me”, ‘others’ are all God’s business of whom I am a servant and not my own responsibility! My responsibility towards ‘others’ is to constantly say “yes”, understand, excuse, forgive, comprehend and accept them…”

59. 

    Michael Bauman

    January 25, 2013

    dinoship: it is the people who insist that whatever they do is normal and out to be recognized by the Church as such with whom I have an issue. That includes all sorts of ‘normal’ activities such as drinking to excess, gambling, etc. Who refuse to deal with sin and temptation as sin and temptation and expect the Church to excuse it anyway.

    Challenging words from Fr. Schmemann and it highlights the difference between morality and the Chrisitan journey to wholeness through grace.

60. 

    mary benton

    January 25, 2013

    Father Stephen – Another question occurred to me, regarding the Orthodox understanding of “falleness” as mentioned by dinoship.

    Since the etiology of sexual orientation is not clearly understood, I will cite more clear cut examples upon which to base my question. Some people are born with “differences” that are considered medically “abnormal”, e.g. disorders of sexual development based on chromosomal patterns (46XX, 46XY, 45X0, 47XXY, etc.), Downs Syndrome, people born with extra or missing organs, limbs, fingers, etc.

    I think we would all agree that these conditions are not “sinful” or the fault of the affected individuals or their parents – though at one time they may have been viewed that way. Would these occurrences be regarded in some way as tied to the falleness of humanity? Or are they considered more part of the mystery of the Divine plan that goes beyond our understanding?

    Thanks for any light you can shed.

61. 

    dinoship

    January 25, 2013

    Michael,
    I also feel the same way as you. It is, to use an analogy, as if the King of Babylon decrees that we eat ‘naturally’ rather than, like the Prophet Daniel, keep the fast of our tradition.
    (As I think Father Stephen once said), it is OUR Church, OUR scripture and the secular world wanting to influence It, is obviously not such a “virtuous desire” as it would want to convince itself and others…

    Mary Benton,
    I also await Father’s answer, however, the framework for understanding this question for me remains: “It’s how you deal with what you’ve been dealt.”.
    Of course these differences are tied to the falleness of humanity, as both what can be described as “unnatural” as well as “natural” states are fallen – they are “in Adam”– compared to the “supra-natural” (from our current perspective) state that one can taste “in Christ”.
    In Christ, in the fulness of His Grace man can hardly even eat or sleep!
    That lofty state (one of walking on water and praying throughout the nights) is what would normally be called our ‘natural state’ by our God-bearing Fathers and Mothers.
    For example, the Elder Paisios would hardly ever eat more than a single bite of a fruit or a tea, Saint Silouan would always sleep less than an hour and a half… most of this would be completely effortless.

62. 

    dinoship

    January 25, 2013

    Michael,
    I also feel the same way as you. It is, to use an analogy, as if the King of Babylon decrees that we eat ‘naturally’ rather than, like the Prophet Daniel, keep the fast of our tradition.
    (As I think Father Stephen once said), it is OUR Church, OUR scripture and the secular world wanting to influence It, is obviously not such a “virtuous desire” as it would want to convince itself and others…

63. 

    dinoship

    January 25, 2013

    Mary Benton,
    I also await Father’s answer, however, the framework for understanding this question for me remains: “It’s how you deal with what you’ve been dealt.”.
    Of course these differences are tied to the falleness of humanity, as both what can be described as “unnatural” as well as “natural” states are fallen – they are “in Adam”– compared to the “supra-natural” (from our current perspective) state that one can taste “in Christ”.
    In Christ, in the fulness of His Grace man can hardly even eat or sleep!
    That lofty state (one of walking on water and praying throughout the nights) is what would normally be called our ‘natural state’ by our God-bearing Fathers and Mothers.
    For example, the Elder Paisios would hardly ever eat more than a single bite of a fruit or a tea, Saint Silouan would always sleep less than an hour and a half… most of this would be completely effortless.

64. 

    dinoship

    January 25, 2013

    Michael,
    I also feel the same way as you. It is, to use an analogy, as if the King of Babylon decrees that we eat ‘naturally’ rather than, like the Prophet Daniel, keep the fast of OUR tradition.
    (As I think Father Stephen once said), it is OUR Church, OUR scripture and the secular world wanting to influence It, is obviously not such a “virtuous desire” as it would want to convince itself and others…

    p.s.: I have posted this multiple times unsuccessfully so, i hope it doesn’t suddenly appear 10 times!!!

65. 

    dinoship

    January 25, 2013

    Michael,
    what you describe, (“the tyranny of tolerance”) is a widespread issue in much of the western world – it does remind me of the Babylonian King’s decree in the book of Daniel…

66. 

    PJ

    January 25, 2013

    ““the Orthodox application of all this is “only to me”, ‘others’ are all God’s business of whom I am a servant and not my own responsibility! My responsibility towards ‘others’ is to constantly say “yes”, understand, excuse, forgive, comprehend and accept them…””

    I don’t think it’s so simple as that, Dino.

    There is a place for loving admonishment and gentle fraternal correction. Our Lord tells us this plainly: “If thy brother sin against thee, reprove him” (Luke 17:3). “Reprove” not “ignore.” And further: “Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother” (Matthew 18:15).

    St. Paul even makes the case for public reproof: “Them that sin reprove before all: that the rest also may have fear” (1 Tim. 5:20). Though this was written in a letter for a pastor, so the advice probably has limited application.

    I fully expect my brothers and sisters in Christ to correct me when I go astray. This is proof of charity. As St. Thomas wrote, “The greatest kindness one can render to any man consists in leading him from error to truth.”

    Interestingly, admonishing sinners and instructing the ignorant are both considered spiritual works of mercy in the Catholic tradition.

    We must tend to one another in all gentleness and charity and prudence and patience. When one suffers, all suffer; thus when one goes astray, all go astray. Therefore, we are our brothers’ keepers, to the glory of God.

67. 

    TLO

    January 25, 2013

    the “new religion” is one that does not accept any falleness.

    Being reasonable is not a “religion.” It is irksome when one presumes that the absence of a religion is in fact a religion unto itself. This is simply not the case.

    That aside, it seems to me that those who take the stance that it is not a sin to be homosexual have removed the stigma that has caused a judgmental heart in those who do and freed those who are homosexual from a guilt that should never have been theirs in the first place. It is religious dogma that has equated homosexuality with sin just as in the past religion has often equated epilepsy and other conditions with demon possession (I recently read somewhere that gun powder, when first introduced in Europe, was considered a form of witchcraft).

    We have seen the same thing with racism in many places. The stigma of being born with dark skin was literally oppressive for most of American history and an even larger portion of European history. I can cite any number of sermons over the centuries that have had at its core the idea that:

    …everything, in a sense, has become unnatural. is a manifestation of the ‘thorn in the flesh’…

    And the first portion of this statement is absurd at any rate. If everything is unnatural then that means nothing is natural which defies the meaning of the word “natural.” It is Mad Hatter reasoning.

    So, whether I have a tendency towards gluttony, reverie, despondency, sensuality, pride, …

    These are qualities common to all human beings. Homosexuality is not. Homosexual people experience love just as heterosexual people do. The only difference is the object of their affections.

    I, personally, do not dig white chicks. There is simply no attraction there for me. So is it “unnatural” or a “sin” for me to be attracted to women of color (the darker the better)? In a former age, this would have been considered shameful and I would have been treated very badly by most other white people.

    If the church wants to maintain the archaic ideas about homosexuality, I am certain that, in time, this thinking will go the way of demon possession vs. mental illness. There’s simply no getting around biology.

68. 

    PJ

    January 25, 2013

    Really, John? The old “resistance is futile” routine? Eye roll.

69. 

    dinoship

    January 25, 2013

    PJ,
    I used to think that way too, with support from some ‘Orthodox’ persons, until I was corrected time and again by the most discerning (honestly) of spiritual Fathers.
    I also could say -as Abba Nisthero says on the matter of correcting others, whose apparent “indifference” to his own spiritual children’s sins was extremely scandalous to his brothers in Christ- that the Lord said to “first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.” but Bible quoting will get us nowhere on its own…

70. 

    Michael Bauman

    January 25, 2013

    This can get real murkey really quickly. However, the Traditional Orthodox anthropology which is integrally related to our Christology and the path to salvation will not change just because of some fad of scientism and political correctness.

    It includes certain things (among many):

    1. We are created male and female.

    2. The synergy that exists between the male and the female cannot be duplicated between two people of the same sex.

    3. The duality is not just about sexual intercourse and procreation or about sexual desire. It is part of how God wants us to function within His creation to do what He has commanded us to do.

    4. Not all love needs to be expressed sexually. We are not ‘sexual beings’. There is only one way in which we can express the sexual desire, i.e. a marriage between one man and one woman. All other expression of sexual desire is inherently sinful and all temptation to any other form of sexual expresson must be overcome. Even in marriage we are not free to engage in any and all forms of sexual expression any time we want.

    5. The mystery of our being so far transcends anything science can even begin to consider that in many ways science is irrelevant.

    6. Anytime we define who we are by our desires (any of our desires) we miss the point and locks us into a false ideation.

    The point is that without Christ, all of our desires have elements of sinfulness that must be overcome. The Orthodox path is one of constant repentance and asceticism (even sexual expression in marriage for instance) probing ever more deeply (with an experienced and compassionate guide) into our souls and being; offering more and more of what we think of as ‘us’ to God so that we might be transformed into who we truly are. Few follow the path with the diligence and discipline required to experience the fullness of their beings.

    Further: Demons do exist and can both influence and possess we humans if we allow it. They are wholly malevalent beings who desire our destruction. Most of the time, they do not need to be directly involved with us because we do a fine job of destroying ourselves.

    Metal illness does exist that is biologically and emotionally based.

    It is not an either/or situation. Rather it is a both/and situation.

    Adam and Eve’s transgression brought disorder, decay and death into creation. Not all expressions of that disorder are sinful but they are all the result of our separation from our Creator as described in the first chapter of Romans. Thus the physical abnormalities, genetic diseases, etc. are all part of the general disorder and decay that is one of the consequences of being separated from God.

    Jesus Christ incarnated and did all that he did to restore proper order and proper understanding of who we are and what God wants of us. We can particpate in the “new heaven and new earth” right now if we work at it.

    One thing is certain to me. The current ruling ideology (poltically and culturally) is anti-Christian and is using the tyranny of tolerance to attack and attempt to destroy traditional Christianity whether in the RCC or we Orthodox. Confusing and obsfucating who we are as human beings is a big part of that attack.

71. 

    dinoship

    January 25, 2013

    TLO,

    If you do not endorse the “In Adam” or “In Christ” notion (even as a type of cold intellectual reasoning), we cannot possibly agree here; what we are comparing here is the state we see around us with a state of perfection which you actually doubt. However, that state of perfection is the yardstick, not the other way around – you are missing that point I am afraid.
    your secular reasoning on the matter is all the more proof of the invaluable worth of the example of ‘perfection’ (even if only an ‘attempted’ perfection) which is still the goal of Orthodox monastics, as seen on Mount Athos. Thank God for that.
    In their calling, both those “qualities common to all human beings”, as well as what is not, are to be overcome by them, it matters not which of those two ‘camps’ they belong to…

72. 

    PJ

    January 25, 2013

    Dino,

    I don’t think those verses are in contradiction. The spirit of judgment and the spirit of loving admonition are utterly opposed. St. John Chrysostom’s commentary on Matthew 18:15. makes this point. It’s interesting — you should read it. St. Paul rebukes the Galatians, for instance, but there is no judgment in his words — just charity and concern.

    Many times God has blessed me through the patient and kindly reproof of brothers and sisters in the Lord. Thank the Lord for their wisdom and kindness!

73. 

    PJ

    January 25, 2013

    Michael,

    I agree: To understand the Christian “sexual ethic” (for lack of a better term), one must look not at nature, but at Christ and His Bride, for which the coming together of man and woman in nuptial intimacy (at once generative and unitive) is an icon or symbol.

74. 

    Michael Bauman

    January 25, 2013

    A living symbol, an icon of the unity with Christ that makes real His presence and mercy and grace. Such presence is simply not there in any other form of sexual expression since any other form is akin to idolatry.

    Even in marriage that purety is difficult to attain and maintain. It is impossible anywhere else. Monastisim takes that unity to its highest expression. Unity with Christ that does not involve carnal sexual union at all, but nevertheless is an expression of the Bridegroom joining with His Bride.

    I assume you have read Pope John Paul II’s Theology of the Body.

75. 

    PJ

    January 25, 2013

    Yes. Though I’ve also read St. Paul: “For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the Church” (Eph. 5:31-32). ; – )

76. 

    dinoship

    January 25, 2013

    PJ,
    “The spirit of judgment and the spirit of loving admonition are utterly opposed” I agree of course, but the discernment to truly ascertain whether there is any judgement secretly mixed in my loving admonition is usually hidden from me. Only one who has experienced true, deep, and utterly compunctionate repentance, even for a single hour and then seen the immensity of his reluctance to admonish anyone straight after that (never to be re-captured once that spirit of humility subsides) knows what Abba Nisthero means..

    I completely comply with you and Michael on “that great mystery”…

77. 

    fatherstephen

    January 25, 2013

    Mary…the long awaited answer…

    A very difficult problem is untangling our thoughts surrounding the word “sin.” To a large extent, this original post (long lost in our manifold comments) focuses on this very problem. We say “sin” and we think “bad,” “shame,” “morally repugnant,” etc. These are “moral” judgments. As I’ve noted, Christianity is not “moral”: it is ontological. We do not have a legal problem, we have an ontological and existential problem. I’ll quote myself, “Jesus did not die to make bad men good – He died to make dead men live” (it’s in the book). This is very much St. Paul and St. John’s take on sin – but we read the word in Scripture and immediately read a whole legal, forensic world into its meaning.

    St. Paul says, “The wages of sin is death.” The legal read is “If you sin, God will kill you.” The ontological read is “sin and death are interchangeable.” It is this latter understanding that rightly perceives the Cross and Resurrection. Christ “tramples down death by death,” and this is also the forgiveness of sins. In Orthodoxy we sing, that Christ “forgives all by the resurrection.” How would the resurrection possibly be forgiveness is sin is a legal/moral issue? Much of Orthodoxy only makes sense if you take on ontological view of these things. I contend that it is, in fact, the Christian view and the right interpretation of the faith. I’m actually kind of dogmatic about it. 🙂

    Having said that as a prelude – it becomes much easier to speak rightly about problems surrounding our sexuality. Everyone is broken – “there is no one who lives who does not sin” we sing in the burial office. There is no “unbroken” sexuality. Unbelievers will not understand this. I well understand why those who struggle with the problems of a homosexual orientation have thrown off the “moral” yoke of a forensic reading of Christianity. Who needs to live with unmitigated shame. Shame is the one emotion that human beings cannot endure. There’s no healing of any sort to be found in the legal model. Just effort, failure, guilt and shame. It’s a lousy cycle.

    So, I can say, sure homosexuality is sinful – all of our sexuality is marked by sin. The Christian understanding is that our salvation if found in the transformation into the image of Christ – from glory to glory. It is a transformation of our psyche, of our of our soul and spirit, even of our body. There are only two kinds of people – those who are on the path of salvation, moving towards transformation and those who are still plunging deeper into the death that drags on us like an ontological entropy.

    One of the sad legacies of the legal/moral model of Christianity, is a complacent middle class morality. People think that they live “normal” lives and are comfortable with their merely moral existence. Being “not like those people” is quite sufficient. A drive-through mentality about confession can aid this trivialization of the faith. Equally deadly is the casual “I accepted Jesus as my Lord and Savior,” that underwrites middle class morality. In America this is particularly pernicious where our cultural Christianity is theologically shallow, and morally tepid. It’s energy is devoted to political issues (homosexuality, abortion, etc.) and its positive energy to patriotism. It lacks repentance and true sobriety.

    If we ever perceive the true nature of the ontological crisis that is the human predicament, we would be much less prone to judge. If I’m hanging by a thread on the edge of a precipice, I don’t have a lot of time to judge the other poor soul who is dangling next to me. That he may be an inch further down the thread than me is hardly important compared to the abyss that stretches beneath us.

    I think of Christ’s warning to the crowds:

    Those eighteen on whom the tower in siloam fell and killed them, do you think that they were worse sinners than all other men who dwelt in Jerusalem? No, I tell you; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish.

    There’s an answer in there somewhere.

78. 

    PJ

    January 25, 2013

    “It’s energy is devoted to political issues (homosexuality, abortion, etc.) and its positive energy to patriotism. It lacks repentance and true sobriety.”

    Father, I think this is unfairly dismissive. Some 50,000,000 children of God have been snuffed out in the womb during the last forty years. 50,000,000! This isn’t merely a “political problem.” It is a holocaust. It is a crime and tragedy of unprecedented proportions. There’s nothing tepid about those who oppose it. Yesteryear, Christians rescued Roman infants left on hillocks; today, we run crisis pregnancy centers, adopt would-be abortions, counsel survivors and victims, donate time and money to support poor mothers and their newborns, and of course pray, fast, and do penance. If you find that there is a lack of sobriety and repentance in the abolitionist movement, I urge you to take another look. On this day of all days, we should remember the terrible battle we wage against this most fiendish practice.

79. 

    PJ

    January 25, 2013

    Dino,

    I agree that it is very hard to admonish rather than judge. The temptation of self-righteousness is often irresistible. Authentic fraternal correction is possible only with wisdom from on high.

80. 

    dinoship

    January 25, 2013

    Thank you Father for your most valuable (& long) comment…!
    Although it is the kind of comment that one cannot extract small quotes -it needs to be read in its entirety – I marvel at the wisdom in:

    If we ever perceive the true nature of the ontological crisis that is the human predicament, we would be much less prone to judge. If I’m hanging by a thread on the edge of a precipice, I don’t have a lot of time to judge the other poor soul who is dangling next to me. That he may be an inch further down the thread than me is hardly important compared to the abyss that stretches beneath us.

81. 

    dinoship

    January 25, 2013

    PJ,
    of course you are 100% correct on abortion, but I think that what Father means is missed in your comment above, what I took away is that he parenetically inspires and calls for the singular importance of “repentance and true sobriety” above all.

82. 

    fatherstephen

    January 25, 2013

    PJ,
    I marched this year, as I have in the past, in the March for Life, and support our local crisis pregnancy center. I am a member of the TN Right to Life. However, Evangelical Christians (and Catholics and Orthodox) in America tend to have abortions at the same rate as the culture. The March (which I will continue to participate in) can be an all too easy act of “morality” and not a mark of repentance. I feel deep shame that we have such little regard for life in our culture, and know that I participate and contribute to that devaluation. I have not voted for a pro-abortion candidate in decades now, and will not. But my morality is still petty and my repentance far short of the failings of my life. I know that the present pro-life tactics have moved away from the “block the clinic” strategies of the ’80’s, but I remember well friends of mine who went to jail during that time. It seemed a bit more appropriate than our quiet marches. But I’m also a child of the 60’s.

    I know too many cases of pro-lifers who privately urged abortions on their daughters, etc., to be terribly impressed with our politics. Ontology is more reliable than morality. If we acted as though our “life” depended on it (which it does) we would act differently, and not just morally.

    And, thank God, for the many who do act in such a manner. They save lives and change lives and help preserve the world in existence through their transformative deeds. I honor them.

    A last example of our middle class moral take on abortion – are pro-life politicians. Some are true heroes, others strike me as mere opportunists. Would to God they had the courage of the slavery abolitionists of the 19th century. I would be perfectly happy if they simply decided to shut the government down until the laws were changed. A million lives a year seem at least that valuable. I doubt the true sincerity of many “pro-life” politicians. Where is Cato?

83. 

    PJ

    January 25, 2013

    Wise words, Father. Thank you. God help us!

84. 

    TLO

    January 25, 2013

    The old “resistance is futile” routine?

    I have no idea what this means. Resistance against what?

    The current ruling ideology (politically and culturally) is anti-Christian…

    This sounds rather arrogant. It is not “anti-Christian” per-se but anti-religious (whether Christian, Hindu or any other religious philosophy) wherever those ideas are contradicted by evidence.

    Anyone here can easily pooh-pooh most Protestant ideas and doctrines. This is because the Protestant doctrines are in and of themselves ridiculous (and therefore ought to be ridiculed).

    At any point in which a philosophy is proved wrong (e.g. “the universe is not centered on the earth or mankind” or “people are born gay”), the initial reaction by the entrenched is not favorable. But the universe is what it is and you cannot change that. Ultimately, the doctrine is either going to have to change or be so nebulous that anything can be absorbed into it.

    If society is “anti-Christian” (which I do not think it is) then one needs to blame the “Christians” and not society. This particular issue is founded in self-righteousness and condemnation. For that reason alone, I think that any wise man within the faith would steer clear of it.

    I do not object to defining and clinging to morality. In this discussion I only object to including those born biologically gay with the immoral.

    What harm can they possibly do to society? It is not like someone who is born a sociopath and is dangerous to the people around them.

    Are you afraid that you might become infected and become gay? That’s not possible. The reverse of that is also true. So why make it an issue? I don’t get it.

    Finally, I think that it has been clearly demonstrated that prohibition leads to very bad things. Whether we are talking about the prohibition of alcohol (lots of new gang violence resulted), or drug possession (see Portugal’s laws and ensuing results as an example of the right way to address the issue), or driving people underground because they are gay, nothing good can come it.

    what we are comparing here is the state we see around us with a state of perfection which you actually doubt.

    Leaving aside that I have no doubt, this is the whole free will discussion all over. You cannot admit to a world that contains free will and is not in a “fallen” state and yet you strive to reach a point where you personally meet that ideal (although no human ever has (I’ll leave Christ out of the discussion)). The entire exercise makes no sense to me. Anything beyond the golden rule (which no Christian has yet mastered) seems somewhat irrelevant to me. But that’s just me.

    All y’all find great meaning in the faith and that’s fine with me provided that it does not lead to condemnation of those outside your circle. I think for the most part folks here succeed in this. But this homosexuality issue really bothers me because it tends to make people judgmental and self-righteous in precisely the same way that people have been toward the disenfranchised throughout history. I’d prefer that we were better than that.

    “It’s energy is devoted to political issues (homosexuality, abortion, etc.) and its positive energy to patriotism. It lacks repentance and true sobriety.”

    Father, I think this is unfairly dismissive. Some 50,000,000 children of God have been snuffed out…

    This clearly marks the difference between the biological issue of homosexuality and the choice issue of abortion.

    Like you, those stats horrify me and I agree that this is a problem that needs to be addressed.

    The strange thing is that the Pro Life movement embraces those who have had abortions while fighting those who perform them. This makes no sense to me. Why feel pity for a woman who has had an abortion and yet rail against a man or woman who was born gay? Why judge those born without a choice and not judge those women who made a terrible choice? This kind of duplicity is baffling to me.

85. 

    mary benton

    January 25, 2013

    Father Stephen,

    Thank you for your profound reflections – very well expressed.

    Probably the reason I found myself opening this topic (in response to PJ’s comments) is because, in my role as a psychologist, I am an intimate witness to the shame and struggle to find an acceptable sense of self endured by some of homosexual orientation. It is heart-breaking to sit with someone whose church has led them to believe they will go to hell for being who they are – when they didn’t choose to be that way. This leads some to be suicidal – since they believe that they are already condemned anyway.

    Culturally, I think that this unendurable position has lead to the development of “gay rights” in which a sense of legitimacy of self is asserted. While that sense legitimacy of self is necessary (one must have a self before one can surrender self), unfortunately many churches either continue to condemn – or, at the other extreme, permit it in a way that results in the theological shallowness of which you wrote.

    I thank you again for one of the most intelligent and sensitive discussions of this issue that I have read.

86. 

    Niphon

    January 25, 2013

    It is difficult to write of this because there are so many ways to misinterpret it, but here goes: For most of my life I self-identified as homosexual. All through my childhood (including very early memories) and teenage years and into my 20’s I was sexually attracted to men and there was nothing I could do about it. And this was a source of torment and sorrow to me. There is homosexuality in my family – my maternal uncle and some others – and I am the boy in a set of fraternal twins. My father was not very involved in my life and my mother was/is extremely overbearing. Any way you look at the issue, I can speak from that.
    I was baptized into Orthodoxy in 1999 while in high school. I went to college thereafter and fell away from the Church for years. I didn’t really understand myself very well, and didn’t really understand the faith. I could intellectualize about it, but obviously the living was another thing.
    I returned to the Church in 2005 and have never left. Over years of real encounter with myself and a true attempt to live the Orthodox life, I have come to know myself much better.
    Three years ago, i met the first person that I ever believed loved me – in clear and total sincerity, the first person I really felt comfortable around, really felt accepted by in all my life.
    That person is now my wife.
    It is now several years on and we are raising our child. We are active in our parish. I don’t talk much about my past.
    It’s obviously a complicated issue, and life is complicated. I cannot draw conclusions about my experience for others.
    But I am so grateful for my healing. And I don’t mean that in an Exodus International or any sort of ‘ex-gay’ way.
    I know – and I knew for some time before I even came to the Church – that something was broken or wounded inside me, very deep. And I could not bear it.
    I also know that this brokenness is on its way to being healed. And I am happy – and with true knowledge and trust and happiness in my self (and thence with others). And that this happened only after I really started to live for Christ.
    What is really interesting to me is that I don’t feel like things clicked – even in my relationship with God – until I fell in love for the first time with my wife. Until I first believed that somebody could love me.

    That’s a poor and over-brief (and over-personal) rendition of a life of sorrow. It’s not about homosexuality at all. That was just how my brokenness manifested.
    But I do see this (or I think I see it, anyway) in others’ lives, including gay men that I know or have known.

    In any case, I have no room to judge anyone. But I am so SO grateful. Grateful that I know that Christ is True and Real and that He really loves me. Grateful that I have so much love in my life, and that I could never let it in before. I was locked out for my whole so-called life, always chasing phantoms and always hiding from pain and shame and anger.
    And now I walk in love, at least most of the time.
    Life is still hard. But it is so, so very good.

    So I can’t say that people can’t change.
    And I can’t say that people are ‘born’ one way or another, if that is taken to mean something irrevocable.

    But again, no judgment. Just gratitude.

87. 

    PJ

    January 25, 2013

    Niphon,

    Thank you for the courage and honesty of your testimony.

    John,

    I think that you’re failing to distinguish orientation from action. Perhaps gays and lesbians are “born that way.” Perhaps they are made that way. Perhaps — and this is where I come down — it is a mix of nature and nurture. Ultimately, it doesn’t matter. We are only responsible for our actions.

    There are many Christians who identify as homosexuals but who lead celibate lives. There are also many Christians who have other sexual persuasions, but resist them. You may be speaking to some now and not even know it. Simply feeling some way is not sinful in and of itself, at least not in this sense.

88. 

    Lasseter

    January 26, 2013

    Lately, whenever I think of a story like the one about Abba Joseph and Abba Lot in the article above, I think that such a tale would be incomprehensible to many Christians in America–even perhaps frightening to them. The story of the death of Abba Sisoes (“I have not yet begun to repent”)–not to be confused with John Paul Jones (“I have not yet begun to fight!”)–comes to mind as another salient example. When some of Christian culture is characterized, as Father Stephen described it, as morally tepid, theologically shallow, and lacking repentance and sobriety, it is difficult to take serious issue with the characterization, even concerning those noble folk who are dyed-in-the-wool anti-abortion, because the religious culture that is being described in such phrases is one that, despite its meritorious goals such as pro-life, reveals its lack of regard for the depth or dignity of the human person in other regards.

    I am reminded of folk I know who are very much pro-life and anti-same-sex marriage (and a host of other typical and genuinely Christian positions), for instance, who also stockpile arms, carry them into churches where the pastors encourage the men to do so (I say this from direct experience and having attended evening “services” at such a church), believe that rock and roll is evil, think that every woman should be under the lordship of a man her entire life (which is to say complete obedience to him, her father first and then the husband her father approves for her), frequently vilify other Christian churches in their sermons (most especially, it seems, the Roman Catholic Church), and so on. Consider even an educated and intelligent man like Albert Mohler, who feels it necessary to make it painfully plain to his readers that he still finds the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church “unbiblical and abhorrent” and that his signature on the Manhattan Declaration should not be taken as anything to the contrary. (He takes a lesser swipe at Orthodoxy, which is typical, since the Orthodox Church just ain’t as famous as the RCC.)

    The most political or issue-oriented Christians are in countless cases orthodox with a lower-case ‘o’, which is out of touch with history and possessed of simplistic anthropology, hamartiology, soteriology, and a whole lot of other ologies. Oh, but they have moral causes and investment in their fellow man … sort of. Many foster children, which seems on the surface a virtuous enough deed, but largely only in the hope of the kids “getting saved,” which to such is an instantaneous and irreversible decision rather than a process. They will at the same time think an Orthodox vile and unsaved for such things as infant baptism. Their knowledge of history is among many understood as a “trail of blood” of the martyrs they believe were killed in the tens of millions by the Catholic Church, their sense of intellectual and exegetical tradition is strangled by the belief that every individual is perfectly competent to read and understand Scripture fully on his own (and “literally” of course), and so on and so forth.

    Oh, there’s probably nothing tepid about some of the things they say and how strongly they oppose certain things from the government, but is this morality really aflame with any depth? My own interactions with many of them is that other human beings are rather disposable to them, and they prefer, except when they are engaging in “hit-and-run” evangelization, to keep completely to themselves and regard believers who do not agree with their doctrines as unworthy of their time (and probably destined for hellfire). Again, I do not, by the way, speak from generalized thoughts or clichés: I know people like this. If I ever tried to tell them sin was an ontological issue, they’d say, “What does ontological mean?” and then they’d shut down on me completely.

    Of course I’m a poor teacher anyway. And, yes, I know, I just took a cheap shot about the meaning of ontological, but it made me chuckle, and I don’t exactly have the dispassion of a Desert Father, so I can enjoy a facetious laugh now and then.

    Even among Christians who are less severe than the portrait I painted (and I will grant that the type of Christian I affectionately described above is of but one sub-culture, although not as small a sub-culture as one would hope), the charge of theological superficiality, moral tepidity, and lacking repentance (metanoia) holds well for a good many more moderate Christians also.

89. 

    dinoship

    January 26, 2013

    TLO,

    yet you strive to reach a point where you personally meet that ideal (although no human ever has (I’ll leave Christ out of the discussion)). The entire exercise makes no sense to me. Anything beyond the golden rule (which no Christian has yet mastered) seems somewhat irrelevant to me. But that’s just me.

    that is pure Protestant thinking! A Protestant, I am guessing, obviously sees a different Christianity around him from what a traditional Orthodox sees. You might, for instance, see various Evangelicals as examples of (failed) ideals, where a traditional Orthodox sees discerning Elders or unbelievably ascetical old Grannies of a most striking love and meekness…
    In Orthodoxy we believe, we know and we have proofs -in the many Saints from the beginning of time to this very moment- of this “ideal” which you obviously doubt…
    For the Fathers the state of total freedom from passions (Ἀπάθεια) is not something that cannot ever be attained in this life (Protestant thinking) but the first step in “True Spiritual Life”!

90. 

    dinoship

    January 26, 2013

    Niphon,
    you are very right, we are all, knowingly or not, broken and hanging over the abyss by a thread, (homosexuality or not). If a person even just glimpses for a split second, the true, unfathomable depth of their heart’s hardness towards God (this can only be done through the Grace of God’s Light) -even if that person seems outwardly very contrite to themselves up to that point, rather than insensitive- they would be horrified beyond all imagination and would instantly understand the ascetics of old who locked themselves in 6’x3′ graves (and who’s extremes scandalised the ignorant unbeliever)…
    But, to balance that, God’s mercy is infinitely more vast.
    We can therefore ruminate far more on:
    “Thy mercy shall follow me all the days of my life”

91. 

    PJ

    January 26, 2013

    John,

    The Christian existence is supposed to be radical and involve enormous sacrifice and tremendous ascetic struggle. It is defined by the bearing of the cross and the pursuit of perfection, through the ministrations of the Spirit.

92. 

    Michael Bauman

    January 26, 2013

    Niphon,

    Thank you. I can say that I too have experienced the healing, just beginning, of my life long brokenness through the love of my relatively new wife. Not of homosexuality but a deep brokenness nonetheless.

    She sees me and loves me any way. What a blessing
    I too wake up each day deeply grateful for God’s mercy. I often think of Portia’s exhortation to mercy in the Merchant of Venice which expresses the poverty of the legal approach so eloquently.

93. 

    Michael Bauman

    January 26, 2013

    What is so sad is when people refuse to acknowledge our brokenness and instead claim our brokenness as normal and revel in it. We in the Church are, after all, the maimed, the halt and the lame.

94. 

    PJ

    January 26, 2013

    Michael,

    The problem is that there are certain forms of brokenness which plague only the minority. The majority ends up fixating and demonizing these faults because they need not worry being afflicted by them. So, for instance, while homosexuality is no worse than sex outside of marriage, you never see people with signs that say, “God Hates Frat Boys!” or “Divorcees Are Going To Fry in Hell!” Truly, we are perverse creatures — the extent of our hypocrisy is boundless. Luther wasn’t all wrong…

95. 

    fatherstephen

    January 26, 2013

    Niphon,
    Thank you for sharing your story – I give thanks to God for His grace! I am especially touched by its lack of judgment or shaming and your sensitivity to the struggle that should be borne by all. May God continue to give you grace!

96. 

    Michael Bauman

    January 26, 2013

    PJ. While all are broken, not all attempt to make the law protect their brokenness. I would be joyous if we could be allowed to quietly work out our salvation together in fear and trembling with out depraved elements in the wide culture condemning us for even trying. Such ideological venom makes it harder on everyone to address our own brokenness and allow Christ in His Church to heal us.

    It is these attacks on us and the Church that I oppose, not those who suffer under particular problems.

97. 

    PJ

    January 26, 2013

    Michael,

    No arguments here. It’s just unfortunate that Christians play the sin “rating” game: “I may do X, but at least I don’t do Y.” The hypocrisy hurts our credibility. I am as guilty of this as anyone. I’m constantly rationalizing my sin by comparing it to the “worse” sins of others.

98. 

    PJ

    January 26, 2013

    John,

    “I have no idea what this means. Resistance against what?”

    It’s the old march of history mantra. “It’s only a matter of time before this or that goes the way of the dinos…” It’s a fallacy that often appears in anti-Christian polemic. Connected to this is the “dustbin of history” bit. I don’t know how many times I’ve been told that we Christians are an endangered species, and that future generations will look at our beliefs about marriage and sexuality the way we now look at racial segregationism. It’s illogical and presumptuous.

99. 

    dinoship

    January 26, 2013

    TLO,
    Further to my previous comment on ‘perfection’:
    Speaking to secular, atheist, agnostic thinkers of a underlying “Protestan persuasion”, or even a Catholic one, the unadulterated patristic Orthodox always reach the point where they refer to experience -an empirical, scientific even, criterion of the truth they profess. This is rooted in experience – borne out in the lives of the faithful who in every generation experience the state of ‘Theosis’- while the western mind has a tendency towards rational constructs, theories of objectivity -equations of logic.
    It is reminiscent of the Hesychast triumph of the 14th century. It is not so much an argument as a life lived, (as Father Stephen has stipulated in the past: “an empirical dogma is not an argument. It goes where no argument can follow. It is, like the gospel itself, an invitation. It can be proclaimed to the world, but like all things empirical, only experience will confirm its truth.”)

    It therefore follows that you could only ever see the real truth of what Father Stephen is talking about here (whether the subject is God’s know-ability / unkow-ability, or Man’s Fall or something like homosexuality etc.) by becoming steeped -even partly- in some of that experience…

100. 

     mary benton

     January 26, 2013

     Niphon – thank for sharing your beautiful story. Love is truly healing. (Love draws us to God, God draws us to love.)

     Michael – you wrote: “What is so sad is when people refuse to acknowledge our brokenness and instead claim our brokenness as normal and revel in it.” I completely agree with PJ’s comment and want to add something to it.

     If we (church/culture as a whole) give a minority group the message that they are inferior, evil, depraved (or whatever other insult one heaps on them), on a psychological level they need to learn embrace themselves in order to experience anything other than despair or rage.

     In the 1960’s, Black pride and “Black is beautiful” slogans were part of this effort to recover from the residuals of slavery and gross discrimination. (Riots reflected the rage as the positive slogans pulled people from despair.) To say that many African Americans were broken would be accurate – but it is very important to look at who broke them…

     Even though you do not see homosexuality as “normal”, to the gay or lesbian person it is, i.e. it is experienced as a natural dimension of self in the same way that heterosexuality is to the hetero. If church/culture “bludgeons” this minority, as we indeed have, it strikes me as rather unfair to then blame them for trying to recoup some pride in themselves and their identity. Certainly God can bring a much deeper healing – but finding God is hard for the person bludgeoned by church.

     Hence, their “sin” is not only theirs – for all have helped to make it. As Father Stephen said, our problem is ontological…